Warlock and Sorcerer

[MarkB]

The patron collects its price from the warlock regardless, and as the warlock's power increases, the patron automatically gets even more from it. Verenestra gets to take more and more of your beauty as you grow in power, whether you have a continuing personal relationship with her or not. There's no getting out of that.

That's one way to play it. Another would be that it's an ongoing deal, reaffirmed every time power is exchanged. Each time the character beseeches Verenestra, he bargains away a little more of his beauty in return for more of her favour.

That's an interesting thought, but shouldn't the warlock have some say in it? I imagine that each archdemon's pact has very different benefits and drawbacks, according to its inner nature. It would really suck for the warlock if his "contract" could just be handed off to someone else and the nature of his powers totally changes.

Similar beings would have interest in similar souls, so there might not be too great a change. And for the rest, it could simply be one more pitfall of making deals with such dark entities.

This sort of thing would be mostly a role-playing choice, something to spice up a character's storyline. The character might have no say in it, but the player (in co-operation with the DM) would.

 

[Tehnai]

I feel like people are forgetting that balance in 5E is not supposed to be all about combat. I mean, Sorceror is just about as scrappy a class as fighter is. Your job is to hit/burn/freeze monsters and not die while doing so. You have access to no useful rituals, no fancy magic that could be used for anything else than "I DEAL DAMAGE TO YOU!", and the occasional shield or light.

Whereas wizard does have access to the kaboom spells, the wizard is more about finding cool and unexpected ways to bypass the fight altogether, creating magical portals and so on. The sorceror is a combat class, the wizard can do a little bit of everything.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I feel like people are forgetting that balance in 5E is not supposed to be all about combat. I mean, Sorceror is just about as scrappy a class as fighter is. Your job is to hit/burn/freeze monsters and not die while doing so. You have access to no useful rituals, no fancy magic that could be used for anything else than "I DEAL DAMAGE TO YOU!", and the occasional shield or light.

Whereas wizard does have access to the kaboom spells, the wizard is more about finding cool and unexpected ways to bypass the fight altogether, creating magical portals and so on. The sorceror is a combat class, the wizard can do a little bit of everything.

I agree that the wizard's magic has much broader and more creative applications, but people who want to play evoker wizards who make things go boom shouldn't feel completely outmatched. Maybe the best answer is an evocation "arcane tradition" that gives them an edge in spell damage.

 

[Li Shenron]

I feel like people are forgetting that balance in 5E is not supposed to be all about combat. I mean, Sorceror is just about as scrappy a class as fighter is. Your job is to hit/burn/freeze monsters and not die while doing so. You have access to no useful rituals, no fancy magic that could be used for anything else than "I DEAL DAMAGE TO YOU!", and the occasional shield or light.

Whereas wizard does have access to the kaboom spells, the wizard is more about finding cool and unexpected ways to bypass the fight altogether, creating magical portals and so on. The sorceror is a combat class, the wizard can do a little bit of everything.

At this point, it's probably good to shrink the Sorcerer class to just that role. It cannot have the strategic versatility of the Wizard spell list, otherwise there is a risk that with a good combination of spells the draconic sorcerer ends up like a more flexible Wizard which, when out of batteries, turns into a Fighter (which would be unfair for the Wizard, not for the Fighter).

 

[Bow_Seat]

At this point, it's probably good to shrink the Sorcerer class to just that role. It cannot have the strategic versatility of the Wizard spell list, otherwise there is a risk that with a good combination of spells the draconic sorcerer ends up like a more flexible Wizard which, when out of batteries, turns into a Fighter (which would be unfair for the Wizard, not for the Fighter).

Or the other way around. If they make the bloodline decide what section of the wizard spell list that they draw from then you could have a sorcerer with only illusion, utility spells. So long as they don't have the full wizard utility I don't think it will matter too much what subset of the wizard spell list that they draw from.

 

[Li Shenron]

Or the other way around. If they make the bloodline decide what section of the wizard spell list that they draw from then you could have a sorcerer with only illusion, utility spells. So long as they don't have the full wizard utility I don't think it will matter too much what subset of the wizard spell list that they draw from.

It might work, yes...

- A draconic heritage sorcerer focused on evocations and energy conjurations.
- A demonic/fiendish heritage sorcerer focused on summoning and shapechanging.
- A fey heritage sorcerer focused on enchantments and illusions.
- A voodoo/spirits heritage sorcerer focused on divinations, necromancy and curses.

Then the problem becomes how not to pollute the PHB with pages and pages of spell lists... (maybe turn the wizard list into a table?)

 

[Bow_Seat]

Then the problem becomes how not to pollute the PHB with pages and pages of spell lists... (maybe turn the wizard list into a table?)

the very cheap way of doing this is to just give my arcane type (abjuration, necromancy, illusion, whatever), but then I guess the lists wouldn't feel as tailored as they otherwise would.

 

[Grimmjow]

sorcs and warlocks are maybe uncommon classes? maybe that is why they are more powerful than the others, there is suppose to be less of them around?

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

It looks so far like sorcerous origins (why can't they be called bloodlines?) will play almost exactly like cleric domains (except they determine hit dice too, and have those cool bonuses as you drain your Willpower). One "free" spell per spell level that ties you in closely with a particular theme.

Meanwhile, the core sorcerer list is sort of the bluntest of wizard spells. Lots of evocations and abjurations, a few other goodies.

The draconic origin seems to be the warmage focus. The bonus spells (+2d6 to next attack, block 10 damage, and the inescapable dragon breath probably at 6th level) are largely based around that focus.

A fey origin might be the "shadow-mage" focus with teleportation and such, like the fey-pact warlock. Light armor, finesse weapons, some stealthy powers. The other two possibilities mentioned in the flavor text - "exposure to a powerufl spell or planar phenomenon" and "a malign intrusion into the sorcerer's mind" - sound like wild magic and... possession, maybe? Wild magic could be the evocation-heavy option for people who want to wear robes and burn things, and I really have no idea what a possessed sorcerer would be like. More charms and divination maybe? (Am I missing an option from 4e or something here?)

Anyway, the fey origin might threaten to intrude on the fey-pact warlock's space (or the rogue's), and the wild mage could be a rival for an evoker wizard, just as the draconic sorcerer makes fighters nervous. But in each case, if they move carefully, WOTC could create a unique but not overpowered option.

 

[1of3]

It looks so far like sorcerous origins (why can't they be called bloodlines?) will play almost exactly like cleric domains.

The next ones are probably Chaos and Storm to welcome the 4e fans. Those are not really bloodlines, but happen by accident or spontaneous mutation.