D&D 5E New Legend and Lore is up! Magic Systems as DM Modules

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
[MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION] - Just to be clear, I don't mind if wizards and clerics have a sidebar explaining how to convert them to different magic systems - so long as there is a carefully developed primary system for them. I WOULD mind, though, if they had to rewrite the sorcerer and warlock and other casters to fit this new idea of "modularity" since IMHO many of the most exciting spellcasting systems could not be retrofitted to work with spell slots and so on.
 

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Crazy Jerome

First Post
4E is not the wrought-iron fence made of tigers. That concept more properly applies to something like Faerie's Tale or Hero Quest or any system with completely mallable elements. 4E is more like a traditional game with part of it surrounded by a soft bronze fence made of kittens. :p

The system as presented will not work if all spellcasting classes can take all magic systems, as written, no local modifications, if "work" is being defined as "not have any unexpected side effects". It's quite possible, however, that certain specialized classes can be limited to a subset of the possible magic systems, with no such problems.
 

Sadras

Legend
I really don't want to get into that conversation again, but immersion is highly subjective. And immersion is going to break for me as soon as there is non-magical healing in any form - so 4e in any form :p So fire not targeting a door because it isn't a creature isn't much more of a stretch.

Bad example because Fire is Fire period (unless specifically mentioned it does possess some or all of the properties of Fire), and Hit Points do not necessarily equate to fleshy meat only unless that is the specific concept within your campaign. Immersion might be subjective, but if your damage dealing spells cannot affect inanimate objects I imagine that would affect a large percentage of the players' immersion into the game.
 
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pemerton

Legend
What part of wizards getting memorization would invalidate a sorcerer class that doesn't memorize
No part. Though I don't entirely understand the question - you obviously have something in mind in asking it, but I don't know what that is.

It just means that one of the (potentially) defining aspects of being a Wizard is that act of preparation
I'm denying this. Or, rather, I'm predicting that if D&Dnext has variant spell casting rules for wizards, not all of them will preserve that feature of wizards. Because it is precisely that feature that irritates many people and makes them want variants.
You can't set things on fire with Fireball anyway.

<snip>

I mean, I've been frustrated while playing a pyromancer in 4e by this exact problem.
That's just bad GMing.

Here are the relevant passages from the DMG (pp 65-66):

Like characters, objects have hit points and defense scores (except for Will defense; see Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities, below). . .

An object reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed or otherwise rendered useless. At your judgment, the object might even still be more or less whole, but its functionality is ruined—a door knocked from its hinges or a clockwork mechanism broken internally, for
example. . .

Usually, it doesn’t matter what kind of attack you make against an object: Damage is damage. However, there are a few exceptions.

All objects are immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and necrotic damage.

Objects don’t have a Will defense and are immune to attacks that target Will defense.

Some unusual materials might be particularly resistant to some or all kinds of damage. In addition, you might rule that some kinds of damage are particularly effective against certain objects and grant the object vulnerability to that damage type. For example, a gauz curtain or a pile of dry papers might have vulnerability 5 to fire because any spark is likely to destroy it.​

Fireballs set things on fire - especially flimsy gauze and dry paper! What would the [fire] keyword mean, otherwise?

I am simply making the point that keywords aren't the thing that tethers rules to the reality of the world in 4e.
And I am simply quoting the rules text that contradicts that.

Elemental keywords are largely mechanically insignificant and thus are largely irrelevant static noise.
This is so far from my own experience I'll just have to take your word for it as to how you play your game.

In my game, [fire] damage sets things one fire - as the DMG indicates. The [cold] keyword indicates an effect that cools things down - hence Icy Terrain could be used to freeze a pond or a part of a stream. [Psychic] damage affects the mind and emotions - that's why objects are immune (they have no feelings!). [Necrotic] damage affects living flesh and [poison] damage affects living organs - that's why objects are immune (they're not alive!). If you want to be stealthy, don't use [thunder] damage - it's loud! (That's why bards do a fair bit of it - they should loudly!)

These keywords aren't just for mechanics-to-mechanics interaction. They're the most basic markers, in 4e, of the relationship between mechancial outcomes and fictional outcomes. Ignoring them, and then complaining about the "wrought iron fence made of tigers", seems just bizarre to me. (Also - how would you possibly adjudicate p 42 in relation to magical abilities, unless you had regard to their keywords?)
 
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Matt James

Game Developer
I'm with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] on this one. It sounds like poor DM'ing, which is exactly why there needs to be a larger emphasis on training DMs.
 

To me, The defining characteristic of wizards, sorcerers, psions, and so is the fluff of how they learn how to cast.

The Wizard is knowledge with little talent.
The Sorcerer is talent with little knowledge.

And this is, to me, where the pre-4e D&D wizard has always appeared to be not fit for purpose. The wizard is not knowledge. He's no more "knowledge" than someone who takes a morning drink from the river Lethe for the benefit of their health. The wizard is quite literally the opposite of knowledge - he forgets his spells every time they are cast.

To get the wizard to be knowledge and the sorceror talent, I'd swap their casting mechanics. The wizard is knowledge - he knows his spells. You can't take that away from him. The sorceror is the shortcut. He needs his cribsheet. He might be talented and capable of things the wizard isn't, but he neither knows nor masters his spells. Which is why he needs his book with him at all times - he does not know his spells. Talent, but never the effort needed for mastery. Especially not the mastery needed to change spells on the fly with metamagic feats. The ability to know your spells well enough to modify them on the fly? That's knowledge.

You can't set things on fire with Fireball anyway. Remember Chris Perkins's ruling of how drow darkfire can't affect a door because "It's not a creature?" The function of the power is to deal damage and you cannot use it independently of that because it is primarily a mechanical construct (unless your DM is super nice).

I mean, I've been frustrated while playing a pyromancer in 4e by this exact problem.

Me: "I wanna set that bush on fire."
DM: "You're going to need a match."
Me: "I conjure flame at a wave of my hand...can't I set the bush on fire like that?"
DM: "Of course not, your abilities are for goblinmurder, not for turning my world into ash!"
Me: ":("
DM: "It'd be WILDLY unbalanced to let you burn stuff. The fighter can't do that."
Me: "I...guess."

I'm going to go on the record and categorically call both cases bad DMing. Perkins obviously presented a puzzle-room with one solution and didn't want anyone to find another way. And things that affect creatures affect objects. (Darkfire by the way is explicitely cold so it shouldn't have worked, but that's a whole different story).

And with all due respect to your DM (and chiming in with @pmerton and [MENTION=82885]Matt James[/MENTION]) this was simply a very bad call by the DM - as you seem to be aware of. Fire makes things burn.
 

Yora

Legend
I like these news very, very much and I really hope it works well and will be very well recieved.
Because this is exactly what I want for my own games and the setting I am working on. Spell Points as in Unearthed Arcana are a starting point, but having all spells designed and written from the ground up to be made for both slot and point based spellcasting would probably give us a much better end result. And take a lot of work for people in the same situation as me. It made me really happy when Bruce Cordell was announced as a member of the development team, as his point system for the Expanded Psionic Handbook is still by far my most favorite d20 magic system.

I also like how Mearls mentions that it's not just about mechanics but also about accurately representing the individual settings. I want to play in my world using the D&D rules, but I don't want it to be a D&D world. The world has it's own natural laws of magic and mana and what it means to have learned a spell, and AD&D style spellcasting just doesn't work for that. Spontaneous spellcasting like sorcerers and bards is a workaround, but having spell points is just much more neater.

And it also solves the long debate if sorcerers should be something else than non-vancian wizards. If I can switch all casters in the campaign to spell points, a wizard is good enough for me. ^^
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Ah, the mythic "Good DM" strikes again. ;) Clearly all of my 4e DMs were ignorant and stupid and playing the game wrong and any "Good DM" would be able to thwart those moments of fun-ruining disconnect that only a "Not Good DM" brings to this excellent, excellent, impeccable, and blameless framework.

Yeah, I don't buy it.

As I explained above, I don't think it's necessarily bad DMing to tell your player that, essentially, no they can't burn down Homlett with a wave of their hands. It's also well within the actual rules of the game. What, my DM needed to wing rules for the spread of a fire through densely populated urban areas filled with wooden buildings on the fly the moment I tried to get creative with my bandit-blasting? Nah, I can't BLAME her for shutting down that, with full rules support for it. The rules gave her an out, much like Chris Perkins's out (nothing says she SHOULD let my fire burn anything other than creatures), and she took it. The game didn't really support her doing otherwise.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
And this is, to me, where the pre-4e D&D wizard has always appeared to be not fit for purpose. The wizard is not knowledge. He's no more "knowledge" than someone who takes a morning drink from the river Lethe for the benefit of their health. The wizard is quite literally the opposite of knowledge - he forgets his spells every time they are cast.

To get the wizard to be knowledge and the sorceror talent, I'd swap their casting mechanics. The wizard is knowledge - he knows his spells. You can't take that away from him. The sorceror is the shortcut. He needs his cribsheet. He might be talented and capable of things the wizard isn't, but he neither knows nor masters his spells. Which is why he needs his book with him at all times - he does not know his spells. Talent, but never the effort needed for mastery. Especially not the mastery needed to change spells on the fly with metamagic feats. The ability to know your spells well enough to modify them on the fly? That's knowledge.

That's your preferred interpretation of how magic works. I don't see it myself, because then it means any monster with a magical attack (like, say, a Will O'Wisp) has to be knowledgeable in order to be able to do this thing repeatedly. I much prefer the idea of always-accessible magic being an innate feature rather than learned. Simply for balance purposes, your Wizard can never know every spell, which to me isn't knowledge, but tricks, he can perform a few tricks. The book-learner can truly access all knowledge, but he'll never be able to do this without exercising his mind.
 

Yora

Legend
I prefer the nature of magic to start with a dialed up version of Chi. If focusing your inner energy can make you punch harder, jump higher, and harden your body against punches, why not go a number of steps further and allow the energy to erupt from your body in shockwaves of mana that can set things on fire, hurl objects and people through the air, or produce an echo that lets you see through walls? Or use it to overpower the minds of others, rip the borders between dimensions, or invigorate the body with an injection of life energy.

In such a system, running out of mana or spell points would be simple exhaustion that does not affect muscles and concentration.
 

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