D&D 5E Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option

@Eldritch_Lord

I just wanted to let you know that I read your post in full. Based on your answer, suffice to say I'm not even certain that we agree on definitions enough to even have something resembling a constructive conversation here. We're extremely far apart on what Process-Sim is definitionally (my definition of it maps to classic modelling in science which overlaps with Ron Edward's definition) and what it looks like mechanically in game systems that have a true Process Simulation agenda. To do a conversation like this justice I would have to type up quite a bit (and an enormous amount of that would be annoying rehashing of long posts I've already made). The best I can offer you at this point is the below thread. Page 58 and onward (perhaps to 80 or so) have a significant number of posts by myself and many others on this exact issue (intermingled with dissociative mechanics tangentials). My thoughts are all there. The idea of aggregating them and reformatting them makes my stomach turn unfortunately. Best I can do right now is the below link (I've got several posts in the late 60s and early 70s...my apologies):


http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pa...ations-real-reason-5e-cant-unite-base-58.html

I will do one thing though and comment on @pemerton 's point. HP are an obscene, gamist abstraction/contrivance for expedience and ease-of-handling and fall apart under scrutiny because that 101 HP warrior can reliably, predictably fall off of that 100 ft cliff and survive 100 % of the time. Thus, that meta-game logic (in play from a PC perspective and from an internal consistency/world-building perspective) is extraordinarily at tension with a world that attempts to be a process-simulator for real-world biophysics. Citing real world anomalies (gross, gross, gross anomalies at that...the percentage of times a human would survive a ten story fall is astronomically low) is unresponsive to the issue.
 

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Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
I hoped I had succeeded in conveying "reliably and predictably".

You had said that luck and divine favor were what let PCs survive long falls, with the implication that treating HP as mostly physical wouldn't allow that to happen; I thought you were objecting to the actual survival as opposed to a PC's expectation of survival, my apologies.

In that case, consider: you probably think nothing of hopping off a 6-inch-high curb or a foot-high step at the bottom of a staircase. You might be comfortable taking steps two or three at a time without a problem. You might even, if you're feeling brave, jump down a whole flight of eight stairs, but as a friend of mine discovered that can result in bruises. So you're roughly aware of your capabilities and know what will or won't hurt you.

Imagine some Olympic athlete, say a gymnast who's good at running and jumping. People who do Parkour for fun can leap up and down flights of stairs and drop a dozen or more feet unscathed with a duck-and-roll, so our Olympic athlete in top condition can probably do better than that. They likely have a good sense of their body, how much punishment they can take, etc. after training for so long.

Now imagine someone far above the Olympian in most physical area, who faces down giants and beholders rather than the parallel bars and balance beam. They've been eaten by a purple worm, crushed by a dragon, cut open by a troll, and more. They have a pretty darn good idea of what they can survive--and they know what can kill them, since they've probably had it happen once or twice and then came back from it. I'd say someone like that can estimate pretty well whether they can take a leap from a good distance. They might be wrong, of course--a 10-Con 15th level fighter with average HP can take 20d6 and live but won't always--but the higher level they get the more a mere impact on the ground pales in comparison to other things they've faced.

That isn't to say that every PC would know their limits--I'd expect a ranger who sits in the back of the party shotting arrows at things and never takes significant damage to be much more cautious, for instance--but I don't see why anyone would object to a high-level frontline melee type saying "Dude, it's just a 100-foot cliff, I've fought demons that hit harder than that."

We're extremely far apart on what Process-Sim is definitionally (my definition of it maps to classic modelling in science which overlaps with Ron Edward's definition) and what it looks like mechanically in game systems that have a true Process Simulation agenda.
[...]
Thus, that meta-game logic (in play from a PC perspective and from an internal consistency/world-building perspective) is extraordinarily at tension with a world that attempts to be a process-simulator for real-world biophysics.

There's the problem, I think: we're not modeling real-world biophysics at all. We're modeling a world with very similar rules and very similar starting conditions, but with some extra variables and some altered rules. That doesn't negate process simulation or immersion at all, it just means you have a different set of assumptions to work from.

For an extended example, let's look at the Star Trek movie The Undiscovered Country, spoilered for length:[sblock]From the opening minutes, we're presented with things that don't exist and possibly can't exist, but they all have in-world explanations (however treknobabble-filled they may be) and they all work fairly consistently according to known rules. Given those known rules (replicators can't create living things, you can't hold shields while cloaking, etc.) and some sort of starting condition (warp core leak, oh noes!) you can extrapolate how things should work in a logically consistent manner, barring one-off plot contrivances.

So, in the movie, a moon explodes due to sabotage. Reasonable; ST uses antimatter for energy generation, so when it goes boom, it goes BOOM.

The Klingons sue for peace. Reasonable; it's explained that there's a faction that wants to fight to the death, but you can't fight a war without weapons.

Starfleet sends Kirk and the Enterprise to escort the Klingon chancellor to the peace meeting. Acceptable; Kirk doesn't like Klingons, but Spock vouches for him and the Enterprise is the flagship.

The ships meet up and the Enterprise appears to fire photon torpedoes at the Klingon ship with the databanks backing this up, yet all torpedoes are accounted for. Reasonable; hacking and sabotage are a thing that happens in ST.

It turns out that the ship that fired the torpedo was a cloaked Bird of Prey under the Enterprise.

Buh-wha--? :erm:

It was long established that you cannot fire while cloaked, multiple factions (including the Federation) had specs for cloaking devices and knew their limits, no advances in the technology had been made in the last 30 years by any faction, and from a plot-writing perspective "Thou shalt not fire or shield while cloaked" was treated as a commandment from on high. Yet the existence of a ship that can fire while cloaked is greeted with nothing more than raised eyebrows, hand-waved as "a prototype," and never brought up again.

Even for ST plot devices made of the highest-quality refined handwavium, that's a bit much. It isn't just a one-off appearance of some mystery race or a minor tweak to known canon, it's a major technology of a major villain with major plot ramifications breaking a major rule both in- and out-of-universe...and the topic is shrugged off and the consequences are ignored. Even a casual ST fan in the theater can sit up and notice that that's not supposed to happen.

So, let's posit a ST roleplaying game. RPGs run on a different set of assumptions than fiction, in the sense that the stereotypical player is more likely to shoot the villain in the face than allow him to finish his monologue and, in the case of ST, would likely try to squeeze every last iota of benefit out of warp drives and transporters (fly by the Romulans at Warp 6 and beam a nuke aboard while their shields are down!), sensors and weapons (jury-rig a phaser minicannon that fires on any Klingon it detects!), nd so forth. Players want to know how much water an everflowing bottle puts out per round, how many settings a hand phaser has, and so on so that they can use those aspects of the world and know what's going on with the world around them.

If a GM were to run two solid sessions of the "Let's search the Enterprise to find out who fired those torpedoes" mystery, and when his players gave up at the end give them a small hint (neutron radiation) and say "Surprise! There was a ship there the whole time! It was cloaked, but it can totally fire while cloaked, 'cause it's a prototype!" he would probably be pelted with splatbooks. Same thing with some other blatant unexpected breaking of the world's physics, like some sort of massive probe that disables all Federation technology automatically because [plot device], for instance. What works in fiction doesn't necessarily work in a game.[/sblock]
It's the same kind of thing with D&D. We don't know what the power source for Vancian casting is (beyond the Energy Planes in AD&D), but we know that it can be cut off with an antimagic field. We don't know how fighter types get to be so superhumanly tough that they can be chewed up and swallowed by creatures with stomachs full of flesh-melting acid and survive somehow, but we know that they can survive and proceed to cut their way out. We don't know why someone with +50 Bluff is so persuasive--training? innocent looks? suave voice?--but we know that he can convince pretty much anyone of pretty much anything...and we cry foul if his glibness is dispelled and his Cha dropped to 1 to leave him with a +10 Bluff and he can still get away with telling people the sky is green.

The same holds, on a much smaller scale and with much less melodrama, for individual powers and other abilities. You can tell the difference between a mechanic that makes sense in game, a mechanic that should make sense but the mechanics are badly-written, a mechanic that doesn't work but could with some minor changes, a mechanic that only works because plot, and other mechanics somewhere in the spectrum. HP-as-pure-meat doesn't work, but HP-as-mostly-meat works with some ancillary assumptions like "high level characters are superhuman" and "part of every hit is nonphysical" and so forth; HP-as-plot-shield doesn't work barring some fourth-wall breakage, but HP-as-mostly-plot-shield works with some ancillary assumptions like "only the last hit actually makes contact" and some rules tweaks to match.

We know the world's assumptions, we can recognize where flavor and mechanics don't quite match up, and if Star Trek geeks can quibble over canon then D&D geeks can certainly object to things that don't obey the D&D world's rules.
 

pemerton

Legend
RPGs run on a different set of assumptions than fiction

<snip>

Players want to know how much water an everflowing bottle puts out per round, how many settings a hand phaser has, and so on so that they can use those aspects of the world and know what's going on with the world around them.

<snip>

What works in fiction doesn't necessarily work in a game.
You are making assumptions about playstyles and player priorities here that aren't universally true.

Here is a passage from the rulebook for the Maelstrom Storytelling RPG:

[F]ocus on the intent behind the scene and not on how big or how far things might be. If the difficulty of the task at hand (such as jumping across a chasm in a cave) is explained in terms of difficulty, it doesn't matter how far across the actual chasm spans. In a movie, for instance, the camera zooms or pans to emphasize the danger or emotional reaction to the scene, and in so doing it manipulates the real distance of a chasm to suit the mood or "feel" of the moment. It is then no longer about how far across the character has to jump, but how hard the feat is for the character. ... If the players enjoy the challenge of figuring out how high and far someone can jump, they should be allowed the pleasure of doing so - as long as it doesn't interfere with the narrative flow and enjoyment of the game. . . Players who want to climb onto your coffee table and jump across your living room to prove that their character could jump over the chasm have probably missed the whole point of the story.​

That's as legitimate a way of RPGing as the one you describe in your Star Trek hypothetical, and closer to what 4e is aiming at.

We don't know what the power source for Vancian casting is (beyond the Energy Planes in AD&D), but we know that it can be cut off with an antimagic field. We don't know how fighter types get to be so superhumanly tough that they can be chewed up and swallowed by creatures with stomachs full of flesh-melting acid and survive somehow, but we know that they can survive and proceed to cut their way out.
If this is how you like to run your game, then treat Come and Get It the same way: it's a black box, and we're not sure how it works, but one thing we know the fighter can reliably do is draw in his/her enemies once every five minutes.
 

@Eldritch_Lord

Ok. You're not talking about Process Simulation. You're talking about High Concept SImulation where you are emulating genre and using genre-logic to get from point A to point B and make sense of both points and the ephemera between. Understood. This is actually precisely how I play. However, you seem to be referencing something a little bit different. You're talking about D&D's genre emulation of...D&D...some kind of weird tautology stating that D&D can only be D&D if it emulates its canon material which is a marriage of (primarily wargame) Gamist contrivances to incoherent Process Simulation. Further, these assumptions and agendas have evolved rather dramatically over the years so what exactly is canon and then fair game for inclusion? 1e's assumptions and mechanical tools are extremely different from 3e. 3e's are different from 4e's (but I would say less so than 1e to 3e). Why does this evolution absolutely end with 4e? Why is it heretical?

So I don't know which D&D assumptions and mechanical tools (1e or 3e?) you're using here to represent canon and if you're inclusive and going with an amalgamation then I'm really having a hard time understanding how:

- HPs generally
- Saving Throws vs Breath Weapon/Evasion while immobilized with no cover
- 1 minute combat rounds abstracted into 1 contest roll
- XP (and specifically XP for gold)
- A failure of an Open Locks roll making the lock unpickable until you reach next level
- The ability to stab your way out of a creature's vital internal organs from within and them not falling over dead (but rather the wound that cannot be hand-waved as luck, etc and should cause massive loss of blood pressure and internal destruction closes...instantly)
- falling from 100 ft and surviving every single time
- master bakers and blacksmiths unable to be anything but butt-kicking master bakers and blacksmiths
- arthropods that should collapse or suffocate from the weight of their exoskeleton
- flying behemoths without the requisite thrust and trim characterists

all fall into the same bucket of "Ok, that's High Concept D&D Sim of D&D so its ok"...especially considering its been an incoherent evolution of inclusion of these things from Basic onward. I don't find any of these things particularly conducive to High Concept Sim of any genre. I don't find much them remotely coherent unto themselves, let alone with other collectively as a design framework. What I do see is a mish-mash of Gamist contrivances for expedience and ease of use and grotesque efforts at Process Simulation married to a Gamist infrastructure so we can allow for all manner of things (such as Swallow rules without them being SoD). As such it just seems as though the inclusion of concepts/mechanics into the canon of "High Concept Simulation of D&D emulating D&D" has no rhyme or reason. So the evolutionary track is hard to get my head around. We're good with all of these things but we aren't good with 4e's thematic, (legitimately) High Concept Sim powers, deviation from Actor Stance and unified build mechanics. How does that work out but the Gamist pacing mechanisms and abstractions such as XP for Gold and 1 minute combat rounds solved by singular rolls are inherently part of the same High Concept Sim family tree as stabbing your way out of someone's gut being solved by several different checks (while having the same chance damage expressions from inside your enemy as outside) and being unable to open a lock (after a failed attempt) until you get enough xp to improve your level?

I've played D&D the same way since Basic Onward and 4e doesn't cause me to balk at all. My High Concept Sim is not D&D emulating D&D. Its a bit of Indiana Jones chases, crypt/dungeon exploration and hijinx, a smattering of A-Team's "good guys against the big, bad world", a pinch of Wild West frontier justice and outlaws, all manner of Swashbuckling influences with dashing heroes and flashing blades, a dose of George Martin's grit, intrigue, horror, and a heaping helping of LotR's high fantasy. Its the fiction that matters in High Concept Sim. As such, my question regarding what should "default to canon" is how do those mechanics support my needs in emulating the amalgamation of those fictional tropes? Bloody Path could just as easily allow the Rogue to make an MBA against all adjacent opponents. The Monk has dailies that do that. Perhaps they thought that was too potent of a power and yielded to Gamist interests for balance? Nonetheless, my table has 0 problems with the idea of a Rogue running a gauntlet of foes, parrying their strikes such that their blades/weapons smash their feat or skewer their leg with the errant swing, etc. It works for our High Concept Sim interests as it provides the emulation of our favorite fantasy tropes. CaGI does the same. Why these things would be branded heretical to an evolving canon with (clear) evolving assumptions and mechanical tools when the 3e branches of the family tree resemble nothing of the 1e roots (in both design aim and level of abstraction) is baffling to me.

so TL;DR version:

If "proper D&D" is an agenda of High Concept Simulation of D&D (D&D emulating D&D)...and we have all of these disparate assumptions fraught with varying levels of granularity/abstraction and gamist contrivances within the evolutionary track from 1e to 3e...what exactly are the prerequisites by which we deem something canon and heretical? I don't see a coherent application of a line of reasoning (or a line of reasoning itself) here dictating the pass/fail judgement. It seems to be that the question is more than; "do these mechanics support proper thematic, genre emulation"?
 
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Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
You are making assumptions about playstyles and player priorities here that aren't universally true.

Here is a passage from the rulebook for the Maelstrom Storytelling RPG:
[...]
That's as legitimate a way of RPGing as the one you describe in your Star Trek hypothetical, and closer to what 4e is aiming at.

As I said before, I'm not claiming that D&D's way is the One True Way of gaming, and other games play much differently than D&D does. The way Maelstrom RPG plays has no impact on how D&D plays; Maelstrom has a passage telling you that distances don't really matter compared to the emotional impact of the scene, and D&D has mechanics that tell you exactly how many feet you can jump. Again, in a more narrative system "The fighter gets an ability to make himself the center of battle because that's where he's dramatically appropriate" works fine and is perfectly acceptable for me, but it doesn't really fit as well in D&D given its more technically-minded slant to the mechanics.

If this is how you like to run your game, then treat Come and Get It the same way: it's a black box, and we're not sure how it works, but one thing we know the fighter can reliably do is draw in his/her enemies once every five minutes.

The difference here is that with magic it's the origin that's the black box. Physicists can tell you a heck of a lot about gravity to several decimal places of precision, but not what exactly causes gravitational attraction; they know the how, but not the why, same with magic. With martial powers it's the method that's the black box, and since it's the "how" that's important for internal consistency more so than the "why," that's a problem.

Ok. You're not talking about Process Simulation. You're talking about High Concept SImulation where you are emulating genre and using genre-logic to get from point A to point B and make sense of both points and the ephemera between. Understood. This is actually precisely how I play. However, you seem to be referencing something a little bit different. You're talking about D&D's genre emulation of...D&D...some kind of weird tautology stating that D&D can only be D&D if it emulates its cannon material which is a marriage of (primarily wargame) Gamist contrivances to incoherent Process Simulation.

I don't see why this qualifies as genre emulation rather than process simulation, as they're two different things. Genre emulation is "Elves live for 1000 years and they go across the sea instead of dying because of Tolkien" and process simulation is "Given a race that lives for 1000 years and knows for a fact that their afterlife exists, what does their society look like? What is their religion like?" and so on. Process simulation is all about modeling and the tools you use for that; you can use those methodologies for processes biological, chemical, physical, sociological, and mathematical (among others). Physics simulations aren't invalidated because you're running them on Mars instead of Earth, because the underlying variables differ but the process is the same.

Further, these assumptions and agendas have evolved rather dramatically over the years so what exactly is cannon and then fair game for inclusion? 1e's assumptions and mechanical tools are extremely different from 3e. 3e's are different from 4e's (but I would say less so than 1e to 3e). Why does this evolution absolutely end with 4e? Why is it heretical?

So I don't know which D&D assumptions and mechanical tools you're using here and I'm really having a hard time understanding how HPs, Saving Throws vs Breath Weapon/Evasion while immobilized with no cover, 1 minute combat rounds abstracted into 1 contest roll, XP (and specifically XP for gold), A failure of an Open Locks roll making the lock unpickable until you reach next level, The ability to stab your way out of a creature's vital internal organs from within and them not falling over dead (but rather the wound that would cause such a loss of blood pressure and internal destruction closes...instantly), falling from 100 ft and surviving every single time, butt-kicking master bakers and blacksmiths, arthropods that should collapse or suffocate from the weight of their exoskeleton, flying behemoths without the proper means, etc etc...how is that that these all fall into the same bucket of "Ok, that's High Concept D&D Sim of D&D so its ok"...especially considering its been an incoherent evolution of inclusion of these things from Basic onward.

1) Nitpick: Evasion doesn't work while immobilized.

2) If you'll recall, I argued against 1-minute rounds and gp-as-XP and said that moving rounds to 6 seconds in 3e was better and that they should have removed the last vestige of XP as an in-game resource (item creation and spell components) as well. Same goes for one-time lock picking and other mechanics that were simulation-ified. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm saying AD&D and 3e were all perfect and 4e is a crime against gaming; I originally entered the conversation to talk about why those specific mechanics that pre-4e players didn't like in 4e shouldn't be included in a 5e incarnation of the warlord because including those specific mechanics wouldn't achieve 5e's goal of One Edition to Rule Them All and you could achieve the same goals in other ways that don't use those specific mechanics and pre-4e fans would find more acceptable.

There were bad things in AD&D that were tossed in the move to 3e that I'm glad to see gone, and there were good things in AD&D that were tossed in the transition that I feel should have stayed around. There are some good mechanics in 3e that could be easily back-ported to AD&D and that I tend to houserule in when I run AD&D games these days, and there are some bad mechanics that my AD&D groups avoid like the plague. Same with 3e -> 4e and 4e -> 3e, and even AD&D -> 4e and 4e -> AD&D (for instance, rituals in 4e are basically the same as Vancian casting plus expensive components minus the ability to stop casting near the end to "prepare" them, so I houseruled in to one AD&D game that you can prepare a spell, cast it as soon as it's prepared instead of putting it in a slot, and it doesn't use up the slot for the day, which is a nice way to make obscure spells useful without siloing spells).

And also as I said before, the level of hatred for mechanics on either side is often blown out of proportion. I didn't absolutely refuse to play 4e because my group didn't like a few of its mechanics, I got together with them and wrote up a page or so of houserules to bring the disliked mechanics in line and we proceeded to enjoy our houseruled 4e. Similarly, a lot of people who say 3e is brokenly unplayable and a chore to DM for and so forth played it for years without too many problems and without spending days preparing sessions, and these talking points are what you hear online because the people who did have lots of problems with them are the ones talking about them, so someone who says "Yeah, I wouldn't have minded a simpler stat block" is lumped in with the people who say "OMG, 4e is a breeze to DM for, 3e is such a boring chore, how did I ever survive!?"

If fortune-in-the-middle mechanics make it into a 5e module, I won't mind at all, I'll just houserule or not use them. If they make it into core, I'll be a bit upset that WotC is putting in stuff from 4e that people have vocally said they didn't like alongside the stuff from pre-4e that people have vocally said they didn't like (e.g. fighters getting very few, very boring options) instead of including the best of each edition, but I can still houserule it and ignore the problem. I'm just saying that there's no need to do that when some very minor flavor changes (similar to the change from "memorizing" to "preparing" spells from 2e to 3e, or the change from one type of medium per Perform rank to one Perform skill per medium from 3.0 to 3.5) can solve the problem.

3) Regarding square-cube-violating monsters, you forgot to mention the conservation-of-mass-violating trolls, sentient blocks of Jello, and other crazy monsters. Plenty of them are silly thematically and break the laws of physics in half, but when a vampire stares into your eyes to mind control you you still get a Will save, and when a doppleganger wants to convince you it's your mother you still roll Spot vs. Disguise. It's okay with me if monsters violate the laws of physics of our world, but not if they violate the laws of reality of their world--if everyone's combat trickery/heroic persuasion/etc. was automatic like the fighter's, that would at least be consistent (if unfair) and people could take precautions against it and know what to look for, but it's only the fighter who can do that, which is just as jarring and stupid as 3e's Searing Spell letting you burn fire and its orb of force conjuring up a nonmagical orb of magical energy.

Perhaps it seems like I'm hammering the "what NPCs can do and know" aspect of things a bit too hard, but then my parties frequently run into and befriend or summon up and control monsters, both the parties and the monsters pick up each others' abilities (via items, feats, spells, etc.) when particular tactics turn out to work well, and so forth; having monsters and PCs use the same things the same way is important to me. I'm one of those DMs who thought that 4e monsters being built completely differently from PCs was a terrible idea because the differing scales made monster vs. monster fights play completely differently from classed character vs. monster fights play completely differently from classed character vs. classed character fights (AD&D statted monsters up differently, but at least they were on the same scale as PCs, so PCs and monsters had similar numbers by HD and getting a monster on your side wouldn't drastically change combat) and that 3e LA was a crime against gaming because it existed mostly to dissuade PCs from playing monsters and made making classed monsters a pain, and because if an ability is too broken for a PC to get access to at a certain level than a monster probably shouldn't have it then either.

I've played D&D the same way since Basic Onward and 4e doesn't cause me to balk at all. My High Concept Sim is not D&D emulating D&D. Its a bit of Indiana Jones chases, crypt/dungeon exploration and hijinx, a smattering of A-Team's "good guys against the big, bad world", a pinch of Wild West frontier justice and outlaws, all manner of Swashbuckling influences with dashing heroes and flashing blades, a dose of George Martin's grit, intrigue, horror, and a heaping helping of LotR's high fantasy. Its the fiction that matters in High Concept Sim. As such, my question regarding what should "default to cannon" is how do those mechanics support my needs in emulating the amalgamation of those fictional tropes?

My games are similarly diverse, though a bit lighter on the G.R.R. Martin grit and horror and heavier on the Brandon Sanderson analytical magic, and not at all "D&D emulating D&D." I think our differences lie in what fictional tropes we go for. In my case, I prefer my swashbucklers to beat a dozen mooks in a sword fight because the swashbuckler is actually that skilled, not because the mooks use bad tactics like charging someone for no reason. I want my heroes to be consistently competent, not have their powers be limited-use for some reason without adequate in-game explanation or rely on metagame resources when something can be accomplished that makes more sense in-game. I want characters who are supposed to be great tacticians to have that backed up on their sheet in multiple ways (high Int, Knowledges, tactical feats, etc.) rather than having just one power that relies on that explanation and no corroboration.

In my games, I like to see Indiana Jones shoot the swordsman if that's something he's capable of doing, I like my villains to follow the Evil Overlord List when appropriately instead of necessarily being the scene-chewing monologue-spewing type, and I much prefer player-driven wacky plans driven by their knowledge of how the world works to a reliance on plot devices.


So hopefully that gives you a better idea where I'm coming from. If our positions are indeed irreconcilable and this derail is getting nowhere, I'd be willing to drop it; I know pemerton has been involved in some arguments over this topic with me before and it looks like we're not going to see eye to eye on this.
 

The difference here is that with magic it's the origin that's the black box. Physicists can tell you a heck of a lot about gravity to several decimal places of precision, but not what exactly causes gravitational attraction; they know the how, but not the why, same with magic.

I'll need to read through your post in full and re-parse it before I respond for us to get any use out of this. I think the best way forward is to make sure that we're speaking the same language such that we can reconcile the nuance of our various positions. As of now, I'm uncertain if we're even talking about some of the same things. I think we might be but I'm not sure. I've got plenty going on in the next few days so it will be a bit before I post. However, I did want to comment right quick on the above because it is straight forward and something focused and clear.

We do know the "why" of gravitational attraction as Einstein in-filled the missing parts of Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation with his Theory of Relativity. Gravitational attraction (beyond the quantum level) is due to energy and momentum distorting spacetime thus causing all particles in the vicinity of that curvature to move in accords with its geometry. Eg; the Earth is falling toward the sun (due to the massive curvature of spacetime imposed by its mass) but due to its equilibrating tangential velocity it continues "falling around" the sun indefinitely rather than shooting off into space or "falling into" the sun. My guess is that you knew this and probably meant something else regarding the "why" of gravitational attraction.

I'll get to your post over the weekend. I think I might use the "how" and "why" format that you've proposed here. It might be illuminating. I definitely want to square away jargon to make sure we're using it in the same way.

Thank you again for your efforts. Your posts have been very good.
 

Something funny just ocurred to me in light of my post above. The physical laws that govern our universe are less complex, and thus more easily understood and written about, than TTRPG gaming agendas/tastes!
 

1) Nitpick: Evasion doesn't work while immobilized.

I'm going to use this as a jumping-off point.

Presumably you're substituting 3.x "helpless" for "immobilized" here. I wasn't using "immobilized as a status condition. I was using it descriptively. As in "anchored to the ground by a length of chain" or "grappled/pinned by an enemy such that they cannot really move (in entangled's case, move much) from their current location". The closest 3.x analogue for this status is either "entangled", "grappled" or "pinned", none of which afflict the helpless condition. In this case, the party has no cover and cannot move outside of the cone/blast/burst/AoE volume. Nonetheless, they still are able to completely avoid the damage by way of Evasion or Improved Evasion. Evasion presupposes physical movement (it is not phasing as it is Ex rather than Su) to avoid damage. We not only have this problem, but couple that with the fact that the "evader" doesn't move to a square outside of the AoE volume (and, of course, cannot do it while chained to the ground or pinned) as an immediate/free action or some such.

So we have Rogues inexplicably able to pull this trick off. However, we feel that, for the sake of fidelity to process simulation, they should be unable to use their bread and butter damage move (Sneak Attack) against a considerable number of enemy types (undead, constructs, elementals, abberations, etc). Its this level of arbitrary and incoherent efforts at process simulation that are baffling. What's more, its this level of arbitrary and incoherent tolerance for things such as this while at the same time being "jarred" by things like Come and Get It, Forced Movement or Encounter Powers that I find even more baffling.

I understand that for a Simulation agenda, internal consistency of causal mechanisms should be the starting point for Resolution Mechanics as this is paramount. Further, I understand that a Simulation agenda is adversarial toward meta-game agenda and its considerations and interests.

However, in multiple locations you can find clear and present, embedded resolution mechanics that lack internal consistency of causal mechanisms. This would seem to be a non-starter but, for whatever reason, they are not. I find both CaGI, most (if not all) Forced Movement, and Bloody Path to have more internal consistency of causal mechanisms than I can envision for the above Evasion scenario. They may not be perfect, but I can post-hoc justify them with proper narrative iteration and I can look to our real world (and to genre's that are to be emulated) for the answers as how these things might come to pass. However, I find it difficult to imagine how a Rogue can reliably, completely avoid damage from a volume of <fire, cold, electricity, etc> that absolutely fills an area of effect in which he habitates...and he cannot move from...nor has any protective cover. My interests are not strict process simulation so it doesn't bother me as my Sim interests are of the High Concept (genre emulation) variety rather than the Process variety (This is the same reason why 6 below is where it is on my list). However, if I can do that with Evasion, I certainly should be able to do the same with CaGI, Forced Movement, Bloody Path, etc (this is your black box conversation with @pemerton). Is this not the case for you? Is this scenario with evasion less "jarring" than CaGI, Bloody Path, Forced Movement?


If fortune-in-the-middle mechanics make it into a 5e module, I won't mind at all, I'll just houserule or not use them. If they make it into core, I'll be a bit upset that WotC is putting in stuff from 4e that people have vocally said they didn't like alongside the stuff from pre-4e that people have vocally said they didn't like <snip>

You say here that if FitM mechanics make it into 5e you'll houserule them out. However, what do you do in 3.x but use FitM to post-hoc justify the above Rogue's ability to inexplicably, reliably, completely avoid the damage. The answer is certainly not available to you within the mechanics. It is not available to you by way of an implacable internal consistency of causal mechanisms. Same goes for the "jarring" mechanics of cutting yourself out of a creature from inside (and the insane fiction that comes with it). You have to use FitM. There are plenty of 4e thematic exploits that do not require FitM. They have a clear answer beforehand. If you want to re-skin and use FitM you are encouraged. This, of course, is due to 4e's inherent friendliness towards a meta-game agenda (Narrative or Gamist play). I understand that strict Simulation (and heavy immersion solely from Actor stance) agenda is adversarial to this "friendliness". However, because the friendliness exists it doesn't then follow that you must use meta-game logic to handle many of the exploits in 4e that have internal consistency of causal mechanisms. You can just stick to those if you wish.

Martial Forced Movement is about as central to the game as the Evasion mechanic and the Swallow Whole mechanic. I find Forced Movement to absolutely logically follow as a Simulation of martial competition (be it sports or combat). In fact, my position is that if Forced Movement is not inherent to the system, I would say that the system is less of a Simulation of martial competition than one without it. At the very least, it is infinitely more sensical and explainable than the Evasion scenario above or Swallow Whole. I don't need to leverage a meta-game agenda to "buy-in."


I have a lot more to say about Process Simulation versus High Concept Simulation (genre emulation). However, I think that is enough so far. I don't want the conversation to too broad and unwieldy. Could you respond on:

- Your take on the Evasion scenario.
- The FitM (ness) of it and how that comports with your adversarial relationship with FitM.
- Your sense of Martial Forced Movement from an internal consistency of causal mechanisms (Sim agenda) mental framework.


After that, could you take the below (copied from one of my earlier posts) and put it in your own order from 1-6. After that, I'd like to construct some resolution mechanics (render a few maneuvers/martial exploits) from a High Concept Sim agenda versus a Process Sim agenda.

1 - Is it fun?
2 - Does it promote dynamism and depth within the tactical interface and the accompanying running combat narrative in a genre/archetype-relevant fashion?
3 - Is it balanced with other options such that it is good enough to be chosen against other options while not being too good such that there is no choice (you must take it)?
4 - Is it abstract/versatile enough that it can allow for multiple renderings/applications within the running combat narrative?
5 - Is it mechanically functional/streamlined with respect to ease-of-use?
6 - Finally, is it so abstract as to have no meaning at all (process simulation agenda)?
 


@Manbearcat , good post, and your analysis of Evasion gets exactly what I was aiming at upthread.

Thank you. I used to use "grappled/pinned" by either a sentient creature or a fallen statue as my go-to example. When you brought out the "anchored to the floor by a 3-5 lineal foot length of chain with no cover", I adopted that. It is much "cleaner" as it doesn't allow any weaselly BUT BUT BUT THERE MAY BE SITUATIONS WHERE THE "EVASIONER" HAS COVER DUE TO THE GRAPPLER/OBJECT PINNING HIM red herring as rejoinder which seeks to obfuscate the truth by way of deviation from the crux of the issue. So, thank you. Its your version of the "evasion problem."
 

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