Hacking GUMSHOE for a skill challenge

[Quickleaf]

I am making an investigative skill challenge for my group's next adventure. The village Dunneebrook is reported to have been sacked by the Wild Hunt and the PCs can go there to search for clues.

In Robin Laws' GUMSHOE system "core clues" are automatically acquired so long as the PC uses an appropriate skill to discover them - no role is needed. There are also "secondary clues" which can provide extra information or benefit - these can be acquired by spending points from a point pool (which represent some kind of investigative resource). The GUMSHOE system was meant to address the problem of "the clue that the players missed" grinding gaming sessions to a halt.

I like this approach and want to translate it to my skill challenge.

My idea is to set up areas of investigation within the sacked village - using a skill in a plausible way automatically gets that area's "core clue". Additional clues are possible in many areas but getting them involves some kind of risk (i.e. a skill check with consequences for failure). A failed check might mean a Red Herring, a hard to interpret clue which casts doubt on the "core clue", a hazard in the area like a collapsing roof, a scavenger monster attacking, the PC falling and getting separated from the party, etc.

Does this sound like a feasible adaptation of GUMSHOE for 4e? Does this model makes the overall victory / defeat in the skill challenge moot? Any bright ideas for how to make this skill challenge awesome?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sounds quite good to me. I'd assume that SOLVING the mystery is still up to player brainwork, but if you want victory to be important then some sort of consequences for success and failure would need to exist. Success might require solving the mystery as well as winning the challenge (I guess its possible players might solve it anyway, this is one of those areas you have to consider).

 

[Ratskinner]

My idea is to set up areas of investigation within the sacked village - using a skill in a plausible way automatically gets that area's "core clue". Additional clues are possible in many areas but getting them involves some kind of risk (i.e. a skill check with consequences for failure). A failed check might mean a Red Herring, a hard to interpret clue which casts doubt on the "core clue", a hazard in the area like a collapsing roof, a scavenger monster attacking, the PC falling and getting separated from the party, etc.

Does this sound like a feasible adaptation of GUMSHOE for 4e? Does this model makes the overall victory / defeat in the skill challenge moot? Any bright ideas for how to make this skill challenge awesome?

Sounds like a good foundation.

Have you read the GUMSHOE adventure/mystery writing rules? IME, You'll want to have it set up ahead of time.

 

[Quickleaf]

Sounds quite good to me. I'd assume that SOLVING the mystery is still up to player brainwork, but if you want victory to be important then some sort of consequences for success and failure would need to exist. Success might require solving the mystery as well as winning the challenge (I guess its possible players might solve it anyway, this is one of those areas you have to consider).

Yeah, solving the mystery will be a matter of piecing together the "core clues" (and any additional secondary clues they uncover). So maybe overall number of success or failure is irrelevant?

For example:

Fortified Chapel
CORE CLUE: It appears many villagers sought sanctuary in the chapel, hastily fortifying it in preparation for a siege. The siege was brief and brutal - scorch marks and shattered stone cover the chapel, and numerous charred or battered corpses litter the floor.
SECONDARY CLUE: A thorough search by a spellcaster (Arcana/Perception DC 20) determines that spell fire destroyed the chapel. However, a failed search triggers a clerical ward which paralyzes the searcher for 10 minutes with a blast of light that may attract wandering monsters.

 

[Quickleaf]

Sounds like a good foundation.

Have you read the GUMSHOE adventure/mystery writing rules? IME, You'll want to have it set up ahead of time.

I've only looked over a friend's copy of Trail of Cthulu, but don't own a copy of any of the GUMSHOE games myself. I agree about the need for GM prep...

So the major quest is the PCs want to figure out what the Wild Hunt is up to and how to stop it. Investigating Dunneebrook - the first village reportedly sacked by the Wild Hunt - becomes one avenue for them to do this. Dunneebrook was once a peaceful village known for trading with the fey and an autumnal faerie market, but it has been destroyed and most its people killed.

The twist (which the players may realize thru interpreting the clues) is that foreign mages sought to covertly drain a ley line crossing Dunneebrook, and the Wild Hunt had come just before the mages to abduct some youth (either to spare them or to exploit them...depending on your perspective). A villager fled the Wild Hunt (before the mages came) and was knocked unconscious when his horse spooked; he came to after Dunneebrook was sacked and went to warn the King.

I'm thinking there are 6 areas in Dunneebrook - each with a "core clue" the PCs can investigate...

Charred Homes
Fortified Chapel
Burgomaster's Records
A Peryton's Shadow in a Pixie Trap
Village Idiot In the Well
The Creek / Ley Line

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sounds fun to me! I've never had a great knack for running mysteries in D&D games, but yours sounds like it should work pretty well. There could be some sort of plot twist as well, like the mages somehow connect with the PC's patron, so maybe they're stuck with a dilemma at the end.

 

[Ratskinner]

I've only looked over a friend's copy of Trail of Cthulu, but don't own a copy of any of the GUMSHOE games myself. I agree about the need for GM prep...

So the major quest is the PCs want to figure out what the Wild Hunt is up to and how to stop it. Investigating Dunneebrook - the first village reportedly sacked by the Wild Hunt - becomes one avenue for them to do this. Dunneebrook was once a peaceful village known for trading with the fey and an autumnal faerie market, but it has been destroyed and most its people killed.

The twist (which the players may realize thru interpreting the clues) is that foreign mages sought to covertly drain a ley line crossing Dunneebrook, and the Wild Hunt had come just before the mages to abduct some youth (either to spare them or to exploit them...depending on your perspective). A villager fled the Wild Hunt (before the mages came) and was knocked unconscious when his horse spooked; he came to after Dunneebrook was sacked and went to warn the King.

I'm thinking there are 6 areas in Dunneebrook - each with a "core clue" the PCs can investigate...

Charred Homes
Fortified Chapel
Burgomaster's Records
A Peryton's Shadow in a Pixie Trap
Village Idiot In the Well
The Creek / Ley Line

Without going into too much detail my experiences and the GUMSHOE advice is...

• In addition to a "Core Clue" about the actual mystery, each area needs to have at least one blantantly-obvious/automatic "lead" or "nosering" clue that will send the ever-attentive PCs after it. (These can be the same as the Core Clue.)
• There is no such thing as "too many clues". If possible, plan about twice as many clues/areas as you think you need. If the PCs figure it out with only 5 of 10 clues, great. But if they need 8 of the 6 you planned, the adventure stalls. IME, PCs cling to red-herrings and their epileptic-tree theories with tenacity beyond any reason. Also, as the dude who knows what is going on, it can be very hard to guess how many clues will actually be needed.
• Speaking of Red Herrings (and having thought about it more), they should be scattered right alongside the main clues, not the results of bad rolls. That let's you "hide" them in plain sight when the Players are bouncing the dice. High rolls should yield bonus information, still.
• Also speaking of Red Herrings, its not a bad thing to have clues send them down a side-path to foreshadow a bigger plot than the current adventure.
• GUMSHOE suggests a "scene" card to wave when they have uncovered all the clues in an area. IME, its utility depends greatly on the group, but when you need it, man do you need it.
• The rule of thumb for the investigators is "If you have too many theories, you have too few clues." Which plays into what I was saying above.

Anyway, good luck. Sounds like fun.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Without going into too much detail my experiences and the GUMSHOE advice is...

• In addition to a "Core Clue" about the actual mystery, each area needs to have at least one blantantly-obvious/automatic "lead" or "nosering" clue that will send the ever-attentive PCs after it. (These can be the same as the Core Clue.)
• There is no such thing as "too many clues". If possible, plan about twice as many clues/areas as you think you need. If the PCs figure it out with only 5 of 10 clues, great. But if they need 8 of the 6 you planned, the adventure stalls. IME, PCs cling to red-herrings and their epileptic-tree theories with tenacity beyond any reason. Also, as the dude who knows what is going on, it can be very hard to guess how many clues will actually be needed.
• Speaking of Red Herrings (and having thought about it more), they should be scattered right alongside the main clues, not the results of bad rolls. That let's you "hide" them in plain sight when the Players are bouncing the dice. High rolls should yield bonus information, still.
• Also speaking of Red Herrings, its not a bad thing to have clues send them down a side-path to foreshadow a bigger plot than the current adventure.
• GUMSHOE suggests a "scene" card to wave when they have uncovered all the clues in an area. IME, its utility depends greatly on the group, but when you need it, man do you need it.
• The rule of thumb for the investigators is "If you have too many theories, you have too few clues." Which plays into what I was saying above.

Anyway, good luck. Sounds like fun.

I really need to pick up a copy of ToC/Gumshoe just to learn how to do these sorts of adventures well (better anyway). lol. That all sounds quite practical, though I'm not sure what the purpose of the scene card is exactly.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6688937]Ratskinner[/MENTION] Thanks! When you say "plan twice as many clues than I think are needed", do you mean core clues specifically?

I was reading about the Three Clue Rule (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) which states: for every conclusion you want the PCs to reach provide 3 clues pointing toward it. I think that works great for an adventure focused on investigation, but is it too much detail for a scene? I mean, say I'm using 6 clues as a starting point - one per area of investigation in Dunneebrook. To make sure the players have enough information I'm supposed to provide 12-18 clues!

While the adventure I'm planning is investigation intensive, I know my players don't take good notes and tend to forget stuff (in part it's them, in part our sessions can be scheduled far apart) so between sessions it is unlikely they'll keep even 6 clues straight. IOW I need to be able to resolve any investigation scene within one night (and preferrably it doesn't take up the *whole* night).

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] I would like a plot twist! I thought that having the attack being committed by mages rather than the Wild Hunt was a good twist, but maybe its not enough?

Here's the truth of what happenend so far:

I've already foreshadowed the magocracy Suleistarn is suspected of gearing up for war. A covert team of mages was sent to drain Dunneebrook's unique ley line and kill all witnesses without implicating the magocracy (i.e. pin the attack on a monster or fall guy). The Wild Hunt has arrived as a harbinger of war and senses the impending attack on Dunneebrook, so they ride to Dunneebrook to abduct the people (to spare them or exploit them, depending on one's perspective). The village Druid manages to repel the Wild Hunt (how?) long enough for villagers to fortify the chapel and send a messenger to the King for help. The messenger leaves Dunneebrook but his horse spooks from the supernatural storm and he is knocked unconcsious. Then the mages arrive and begin draining the ley line and slaughtering the villagers. A group of "weihon" children (magically gifted but untrained) flee to the Wild Hunt which abducts them and rides off. The mages finish sacking Dunneebrook and cast a teleport circle back to their magocracy. The messenger comes to, sees Dunneebrook in ruins and assumes it was the Wild Hunt, he rides off to warn the King.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah, yeah, that's a bit twisty. Its good though, if the PCs fail, then there's some sort of conflict with the Wild Hunt (unnecessary and probably ill-fated). If they succeed then the correct enemy is divined and things go better for the PCs. Works for me.