Hacking GUMSHOE for a skill challenge

[pemerton]

I think fitting Action Points into Skill Challenges (or <activity> challenges) is a fine idea.

DMG 2 flags this, but doesn't actually offer a mechanic. The one I use is to allow a secondary check (to aid another or to cancel a failure) to be made at interrupt speed.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I hanker for a more unified 'plot coupon-like' type of resource. 4e has a lot of different ones that each seem to live in one niche. Its hard to decide if its better to use an HS, an AP, coin, an encounter/daily power slot, etc for any given thing.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, the whole mess of tangled online presence that is Traveller these days just confuses me. Its impossible to tell what's actually going forward or what you can actually purchase and how you would get it. Traveller 5 seems like vaporware as far as I can tell. Always sounded like it would be an interesting update, but if it DOES actually exist Marc somehow needs to really sort out his marketing, its terrible.

 

[Balesir]

T5 exists - I have a copy on CD-ROM. It was published in CD-ROM and hardback as a Kickstarter (after an extended beta period for the included systems). Once the Kickstarter stuff has all been sent I guess Marc'll turn his attention to selling the remainder, but only time will tell...

 

[Quickleaf]

DMG 2 flags this, but doesn't actually offer a mechanic. The one I use is to allow a secondary check (to aid another or to cancel a failure) to be made at interrupt speed.

A secondary check to cancel a failure seems like a great use of an action point. It feeds into the kind of response players have to bad stuff happening ("wait, can't I...?")

I do wonder if it makes the odds of winning a skill challenge involving the whole party (while most have 1 action point) virtually 100% though.

 

[pemerton]

I do wonder if it makes the odds of winning a skill challenge involving the whole party (while most have 1 action point) virtually 100% though.

I require a Hard check to negate a failure (as per the Rules Compendium guidelines), unless it is within 2 (and hence a Medium check to aid another, at interrupt speed, will do the job) so even with the AP expenditure it is not necessarily guaranteed.

But calculating odds of skill challenge success is pretty difficult. I do find that most are successes (like most combat encounters) but not because of action point expenditure but because my players are generally pretty adept at steering situations in directions where they can bring their strong resources (in this case, solid PC skill bonuses) to bear; and as with combats, it is often what happens, or has to be done, on the way to success that is key.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I require a Hard check to negate a failure (as per the Rules Compendium guidelines), unless it is within 2 (and hence a Medium check to aid another, at interrupt speed, will do the job) so even with the AP expenditure it is not necessarily guaranteed.

But calculating odds of skill challenge success is pretty difficult. I do find that most are successes (like most combat encounters) but not because of action point expenditure but because my players are generally pretty adept at steering situations in directions where they can bring their strong resources (in this case, solid PC skill bonuses) to bear; and as with combats, it is often what happens, or has to be done, on the way to success that is key.

Yeah, my philosophy is that SCs can be as critical and potentially deadly as combat encounters, but they're also vastly more likely to be successes than failures. OTOH its fine to throw one at the party now-and-then which is just stupid hard but not too rough if you fail (or at least quite fun if you fail). Also I think the difficulty on SCs is rated about like on combat encounters, at-level should be pretty much a cake-walk with the main question being if you spend some resources or not. A complex level+4 challenge OTOH is not usually a cake walk, the extra 2-3 points on every DC does add up.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] I like that "it's the journey and not the destination" philosophy toward game design. In a way GUMSHOE embraces that with its idea that the players always get the clues necessary to solve the mystery.

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] It's rare to see a really deadly or dangerous skill challenge, but I like the idea. As I mentioned, I'm working on a series of investigative skill challenges and I'd like to differentiate them thematically and mechanically a little. Having very dramatic failure consequences is one way I can differentiate them thematically. Mechanically is going to be a bit trickier...

The idea behind the series of investigations is that each would fit into one night's game session (as my players tend to forget details), and would provide one meta-clue about the Wild Hunt which helps the PCs track down and understand the Hunt.

I think the next one I'll tackle is Black Rose Manor.
[sblock=Black Rose Manor]A noblewoman who lost her husband to the Wild Hunt years ago has used Vistani magic to free him, but her now amnesiac husband is not the same person he once was, will turn to dust when the Wild Hunt leaves the world at winter's end, and seems to draw Peryton flocks to the manor. The villagers are agitating that something be done, and if PCs can't resolve the situation the villagers will mob the manor.
[/sblock]
Probably 4-5 core clues, divided among the noblewoman, her husband, the Vistani, and an old battlefield. The secret is going to be that her husband was originally taken by the Wild Hunt for doing something really evil during wartime.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@pemerton I like that "it's the journey and not the destination" philosophy toward game design. In a way GUMSHOE embraces that with its idea that the players always get the clues necessary to solve the mystery.

@AbdulAlhazred It's rare to see a really deadly or dangerous skill challenge, but I like the idea. As I mentioned, I'm working on a series of investigative skill challenges and I'd like to differentiate them thematically and mechanically a little. Having very dramatic failure consequences is one way I can differentiate them thematically. Mechanically is going to be a bit trickier...

The idea behind the series of investigations is that each would fit into one night's game session (as my players tend to forget details), and would provide one meta-clue about the Wild Hunt which helps the PCs track down and understand the Hunt.

I think the next one I'll tackle is Black Rose Manor.
[sblock=Black Rose Manor]A noblewoman who lost her husband to the Wild Hunt years ago has used Vistani magic to free him, but her now amnesiac husband is not the same person he once was, will turn to dust when the Wild Hunt leaves the world at winter's end, and seems to draw Peryton flocks to the manor. The villagers are agitating that something be done, and if PCs can't resolve the situation the villagers will mob the manor.
[/sblock]
Probably 4-5 core clues, divided among the noblewoman, her husband, the Vistani, and an old battlefield. The secret is going to be that her husband was originally taken by the Wild Hunt for doing something really evil during wartime.

yeah, I think that one could be dangerous. Clearly there is some sort of line as to what can and should be deadly (IE a seemingly routine or nonthreatening SC shouldn't prove to be lethal). You have to do a bit of telegraphing or whatnot. I like foreshadowing, it works particularly well in horror-themed mystery (though honestly getting ganked in that sort of game is usually less than unexpected).

 

[Quickleaf]

yeah, I think that one could be dangerous. Clearly there is some sort of line as to what can and should be deadly (IE a seemingly routine or nonthreatening SC shouldn't prove to be lethal). You have to do a bit of telegraphing or whatnot. I like foreshadowing, it works particularly well in horror-themed mystery (though honestly getting ganked in that sort of game is usually less than unexpected).

Well in horror-mystery it's usually going permanently crazy or similarly being taken out without being killed.

I'm going to start designing this next investigative skill challenge inspired by GUMSHOE...

In "Dunneebrook Mystery" the PCs learn that foreign mages are responsible for a covert attack, and that the Wild Hunt was there opportunistically abducting youth (or perhaps saving them from the mages). They also learn about a ley line which stretches south thru the Loamwyrth (a deciduous forest in which Black Rose Manor lies) and north into the Shiver Moors (where the Inn at the Moors lies).

In "Black Rose Manor" they'll learn that the Wild Hunt abducts the wicked to ride for eternity, and that freeing such a tormented soul from the Hunt comes with a price. They can arrive at the manor by following the remnants of the ley line, by receiving a direct plea from the noblewoman Lady Leatrice, or by heeding peasant reports of peryton attacks.

Possible areas of investigation include...

The Manor itself, including Lady Leatrice and her husband Regaund
The Village where peasants are plotting rebellion
The Old Battlefield where Regaund committed an atrocity
The Peryton Nest which might have a magic heart or other clue
The Vistani Camp with the witch who provided Lady Latrice with magic charm to lure Regaund way from Hunt