Sports?

[Dannyalcatraz]

The towns and cities were there before the sports teams. Obviously there was something of interest to draw people in before the sports teams arrived.

Yes, usually natural resources- water, arable land, minerals- or the site had military strategic/tactical merits of some kind.

But in the modern world, those reasons have lessened in importance. Now, economic and quality of life issues dominate the logistics of corporate moves...and where the corporations go, so too do the people searching for jobs.

 

[Umbran]

The towns and cities were there before the sports teams.

Yes. But most of them were also there before the internal combustion engine. One presumes that criteria change with changes in the underlying assumptions of civilization, as well as shorter term socio-economic changes. Consider the population of some of the top US cities, charted over time. The relatives shifts suggest there's more to a city than just the things that were important when it was founded.

http://www.peakbagger.com/pbgeog/histmetropop.aspx

 

[Zombie_Babies]

Beyond even all those excellent points, he presence or lack of pro/college/amateur sports is often among the deciding factors in corporate relocations, just like with schools, libraries, museums, parks and other quality of life factors.

Good point!

The towns and cities were there before the sports teams. Obviously there was something of interest to draw people in before the sports teams arrived.
Charity is all very well and good, I guess. Unfortunately, my counter argument goes into politics.
My logic and business logic are very different--we've had that discussion before.

Sure the cities existed before the teams, so what? Cleveland was a steel town, so was Pittsburgh. Ain't no steel now, bro. Things change over time and that includes what drew people to a town and what keeps that town running. So many cities were built on an industry that's dead or dying and now they rely on whatever they can to bring people downtown because those people are their money.

I'm from somewhere near-ish Cleveland. We had a decent basketball team once not long ago because one kid from Akron got drafted by the team. He's potentially the greatest to ever play the game and practically single handedly took the team to the championship game (and was promptly swept) and made them relevant. The games at home were sold out - frequently he'd sell out games on the road, too. Then one day his contract was up and he 'took his talents to South Beach'. I can tell you a whole lot of what was being said at that time. A lot of it was economic talk, not sports.

EDIT: I meant to mention Detroit because as things go it's more an example on your side than mine. Detroit is dead and the Lions, Tigers and Bea ... whoops, Pistons (and Red Wings) can't save it. For the most part, though, these massive revenue generating entities are positive for the economy ... unless ...

More in fairness to you: Miami is actually being screwed over by its professional baseball team. The owners lied about income and conned the mayor into taking on a huge share of the cost of a new stadium. The people, of course, are the ones paying for it. Again, I don't consider this example as the one that tells the tale. It's an exception ... and a warning.

As for criticizing others, well, I'm not a joiner, nor do I understand the need to join. That is all. That is a reflection on me, not those who do.
I do think the behavior some of the sports fads and franchises encourage is a little odd.

Fair enough on all counts.

Anything else I say would fall under political ban. (again)

And that's a shame but understood.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I meant to mention Detroit because as things go it's more an example on your side than mine. Detroit is dead and the Lions, Tigers and Bea ... whoops, Pistons (and Red Wings) can't save it. For the most part, though, these massive revenue generating entities are positive for the economy ... unless ...

Detroit is a classic economic case study: essentially a "company town" for the auto industry, it never quite grew big enough to diversify. It got its music industry & sports businesses, yes, but nearly everything else was dependent on the automakers, either the companies themselves, or the companies that supplied parts & services to them*. And when that dried up, so did Detroit.










* and the details of how the auto makers threw around their monopsony power are key to why Detroit collapsed like it did.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

Detroit is a classic economic case study: essentially a "company town" for the auto industry, it never quite grew big enough to diversify. It got its music industry & sports businesses, yes, but nearly everything else was dependent on the automakers, either the companies themselves, or the companies that supplied parts & services to them*. And when that dried up, so did Detroit.










* and the details of how the auto makers threw around their monopsony power are key to why Detroit collapsed like it did.

You know, we can even bring it back to sports a li'l. Detroit's teams were terrible for a very, very long time. Like, all of 'em. If you field a terrible team ticket sales typically aren't great and that whole pro-sports team effect never happens. That's obviously small potatoes compared to the auto industry stuff but it may have mattered some ... or more when you consider that the Ford family owns the Lions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You know, we can even bring it back to sports a li'l. Detroit's teams were terrible for a very, very long time. Like, all of 'em. If you field a terrible team ticket sales typically aren't great and that whole pro-sports team effect never happens. That's obviously small potatoes compared to the auto industry stuff but it may have mattered some ... or more when you consider that the Ford family owns the Lions.

Yep.

So as a factor in attracting new corporations, the existence of bad teams in ALL of the USA's big four sports, they may well have been tallied as negatives instead of positives.

And it's weird that a small market like Detroit would even have a team in all four. Many much larger cities only have 2-3 such franchises. It's an anomaly only explained by the presence of the Big Three automakers. Money draws money...

 

[Zombie_Babies]

Yep.

So as a factor in attracting new corporations, the existence of bad teams in ALL of the USA's big four sports, they may well have been tallied as negatives instead of positives.

And its weird that a small market like Detroit would even have a team in all four, an anomaly only explained by the presence of the Big Three automakers. Money draws money...

Good point. I have no idea why Cleveland has three of the four and even less of an idea why Ohio as a whole has two cities with at least two.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With football, at least, it can be summed up with 3 letters: AFL. Or to use more letters: competition.

The plutocrats who wanted to join the pro football game couldn't get into the NFL, so they made the AFL. And due to a lot of factors- populations, demographics, stadium availability, convenience (to them)- they plunked their teams in the Midwest and beyond.

And because they put out a good product, the AFL became the AFC when they merged.

The other leagues have similar stories, though ABA didn't fare quite as well while the AL did.

 

[billd91]

You know, we can even bring it back to sports a li'l. Detroit's teams were terrible for a very, very long time. Like, all of 'em. If you field a terrible team ticket sales typically aren't great and that whole pro-sports team effect never happens. That's obviously small potatoes compared to the auto industry stuff but it may have mattered some ... or more when you consider that the Ford family owns the Lions.

If you mean the 1960s-70s, then maybe. But since then (and before then), there have been quite a few bright spots for Detroit sports. The Pistons have 9 division titles and 3 championships since 1988, the Lions were in the playoffs more often than not in the 1990s, the Red Wings have won the Stanley cup 4 times since 1996 (and were pretty hot in the 1950s too). So it's not like there's been a total dearth of good sports during Detroit's decline. Detroit may be a good example of a case in which the economic benefits of half-way decent sports franchises can't outperform the twin disasters of departure of major industry and flight to the suburbs.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

First, the folks that get paid all those millions very often do mean a lot to the cities they play for. They set up a lot of charity and do a lot of charity work. Additionally, they're part of the reason all of those empty menswear stores you appreciate so much are actually staffed. See, major sports are big business and they bring all sorts of money into the city which creates all sorts of jobs. Bars, restaurants and stores of all kinds see people pop in that they wouldn't otherwise. These teams are a major part of the economy in most of the cities they're in and the players very often make a lot of charitable donations to the area as well. If you doubt it ask the folks in New Orleans what they think about Drew Brees. That's just one example of many.

Second, as for the appeal, well, if you don't get it you don't get it and it's probably because you don't want to get it. There's nothing wrong with that but assuming there's something wrong with people who do see an appeal to sports most assuredly is. It's beyond simply rallying around a team. There's a whole lot more to sports than the score and a lot of people appreciate those smaller details. Basically, your ignorance by choice in no way qualifies you to judge those that watch sports. You just don't know nearly enough to make the sort of assertions you have.

Yeah, that rant sounds alot like what I used to get from people when they found out that I played RPG's and video games. "I don't get why you'd want to play/do that?" "That's kinda stupid isnt it. Sitting around and talking about playing a game about talking?" (That last one from someone who REALLY didnt get it.)

I like sports (mostly Boxing and MMA but I love me some Yukon Huskies as well as Football and Basketball. Baseball I can take it or leave it. Either way I root for my NY teams.). I like RPG's when ever someone from one group diminishes the other that's usually a huge sign not to really associate with that person anymore. You dont have to like RPG's or sports but you dont have to take a steaming crap all over them either.