PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?

[Oryan77]

In all the years I have DMed, I don't think I have ever had a BBEG successfully intimidate a PC. I don't mean via the intimidate skill. I just mean that, when a powerful NPC confronts the party, none of them ever show the respect that he deserves. The PCs respond with smart aleck responses and general disrespect as if the evil being standing before them is nothing more than a homeless man asking for change.

It doesn't matter how I roleplay him or how I describe him, if he is a bad guy (even many levels higher than them), they will mouth off to him. Most of the time, it is done in an immature way to boot.

So how do you handle this as a DM? Let it happen and shrug it off, letting the BBEG look like a complete tool in the process? If I were to roleplay the NPC appropriately, he'd just slaughter the disrespectful idiot and be done with it, turning to the other PCs and saying, "anything you want to add?" I just figure that doing so would eliminate part of the fun for the players since it seems to be an enjoyable pastime to belittle anything that a powerful BBEG would say. Still, it does make me feel like the bad guys are pushovers when I'm trying to make a scenario feel a bit scary in order to put the PCs on edge.

It's not that I expect the PCs to cower in fear. Heck, most protagonists in movies do disrespect the bad guy during his monologue. But just once, I'd like to see the players biting their tongue. I just can't figure out how to do it.

 

[vecna00]

Depending on how you roll at your table, one thing that can be done is certain harmless spell effects, like Hold Person, affecting the entire group, that lasts just long enough for your BBEG to get his monologue out, or to set up a later encounter. You can do any number of things really that can just happen, without a save, as long as it's harmless, and as long as the PCs are able to act during the first round of combat, if you want to set the proper "mood" so to speak. Your new BBEG has a one-time use artifact that can render a number of targets mute temporarily, or has a special spell that causes the PCs to immediately kneel as if in reverence or even worship and anything that's said by them sounds like nothing but the highest of praise! For some groups, this may cause hard feelings with some players, even if it's harmless and doesn't do anything other than essentially knock them down a peg or two. Others, will see it as an interesting opportunity for role-playing, either gaining a begrudging respect or fueling their hatred.

Another option, hit them where it hurts: Start messing with their friends/relatives/sponsors. The PCs may be powerful, but those they associate with are not, they tend to tread a little more carefully when they know the BBEGs can go after loved ones. For some groups, but not a lot from what I've had exposure to, this could backfire and cause them to become more vitriolic towards them.

And a third option is to let the BBEG win. Stage an encounter where the PCs have no chance of winning, but it's not fatal. Either your Big Bad can just mow them down while on his way elsewhere, thus giving the PCs a reason to come after them. Or, maybe the PCs have gained a reputation amongst some of the evil organizations and send a hit squad after them, a group of similarly equipped adventurer-types whose sole purpose is to bring them back alive. Everyone gets knocked out and wakes up in separate cells with maybe one small item that was missed on their person with which to get free, find their equipment, and get out...all while dealing with guards/cultists/what-have-you and quite possibly the one who orchestrated the whole thing.

But these are just ideas, some of which I have used, but ideas nonetheless. These won't work for all parties though, no one knows your group like you do. If any of this is at all appealing, use it! If none of it is appropriate, maybe it at least jump-started some of your own ideas.

 

[Andor]

I would not have a BBEG break character to coddle the meta game consideration of PC status.

That said it depends on the BBEGs abilities and the circumstances of the meeting. If it's in person and the BBEG is a spell caster or the like he might just say "silence insect" and polymorph the loudmouth into a bug.

If it's a projected image, maybe he does nothing at the time aside from saying "sleep well" but that night the pcs face assassins. Also remember that in 5e spell casters have the amazingly cool ability to torment people with nightmares. In fact that could be the mode of meeting, and when the PCs mouth off he twists the dream phone conference into nightmares.

Or maybe he just teleport drops Mr. cuddles on them, the worlds friendliest Rust Monster.

 

[vecna00]

Or maybe he just teleport drops Mr. cuddles on them, the worlds friendliest Rust Monster.

Mr. Cuddles is seriously my hero. Along with Snuggles, the half-red dragon Owlbear!

 

[Mort]

You should take a look at the charisma of the character(s) mouthing off.

Some people have a true gift of saying horribly insulting things and yet not having the target take any offense, or even liking it! (IRL my partner at work has this gift. He's said things to clients that I know would get me punched in the face! Yet the clients are joking and laughing seconds later!)

If the character (not the player btw) has such charisma, and you should probably have them roll too, let them get away with it.

If, on the other hand, it's a character (again, character not player) with less than stellar charisma? Have them suffer the logical consequences of their insult. It's good roleplaying and gives you the chance to take the BBEG off the leash - with a perfect excuse!

In all the years I have DMed, I don't think I have ever had a BBEG successfully intimidate a PC. I don't mean via the intimidate skill. I just mean that, when a powerful NPC confronts the party, none of them ever show the respect that he deserves. The PCs respond with smart aleck responses and general disrespect as if the evil being standing before them is nothing more than a homeless man asking for change.

It doesn't matter how I roleplay him or how I describe him, if he is a bad guy (even many levels higher than them), they will mouth off to him. Most of the time, it is done in an immature way to boot.

So how do you handle this as a DM? Let it happen and shrug it off, letting the BBEG look like a complete tool in the process? If I were to roleplay the NPC appropriately, he'd just slaughter the disrespectful idiot and be done with it, turning to the other PCs and saying, "anything you want to add?" I just figure that doing so would eliminate part of the fun for the players since it seems to be an enjoyable pastime to belittle anything that a powerful BBEG would say. Still, it does make me feel like the bad guys are pushovers when I'm trying to make a scenario feel a bit scary in order to put the PCs on edge.

It's not that I expect the PCs to cower in fear. Heck, most protagonists in movies do disrespect the bad guy during his monologue. But just once, I'd like to see the players biting their tongue. I just can't figure out how to do it.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Kill'em. Or whatever is in character for the BBEG. I never had this problem, probably because my players knew exactly what I would do.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]

Maybe you could share the specifics of your players' most recent case of "talk smack to the villain"-itis?

My experience is that any NPC must earn the PCs' respect (and hence the players' respect) in game, usually over time. Saying "he's the king of the realm" means bupkis to the average player. You've got to demonstrate in detail why he is someone worthy of respect, deference, fear, caution, or whatever. And if you think about how notorious it is for parties to die when outgunned because they refused to run away...well, it sort of makes sense that their baseline would be arrogant and belittling, wouldn't it?

This brings to mind Prince John from my old 4e campaign...

[sblock=Prince John]Prince John (his name was actually Ardanus, but Prince John conveys his archetype well) was known as a nasty prejudice elitist jockeying for the throne at the start of the campaign. I asked everyone to give their PCs a reason they opposed the Prince's policies...most did, a few didn't (cause "I cleave with my axe" IS roleplaying!! RawrZ!).

The PCs begin investigating a murder of an emissary of Prince John, resorting to capturing and torturing a captain for information, discovering Prince John's bastard son is hiding in the area and theyve been sent to bring him in, alive or dead. Before they can dispatch the captain, however, he gets away. They find Prince John's bastard son and learn how the boy's mother, a servant in the Prince's house, was supposed to be executed and the bastard locked in a tower. And they were like, "Whoah, it takes a real bastard to make a bastard son!"

When they're traveling thru a town rampant with Demi-humans being oppressed, overtaxation by a corrupt Magistrate put into power by Prince John, and discover a plot to sell "witching children" with the gift for magic to evil wizard slavers as part of Prince John's plan to strengthen the kingdom's borders thru an alliance with the kingdom of the evil wizards. And they said, "Dang, this Prince John is a son of a flumph!"

Later they meet the bastard son's mother in a borderlands convent trying to fight a plague caused by war and broker peace with Prince Charming's help (Prince John's good brother). The PCs discover that the upcoming peace treaty is a farce and Prince John has manipulated extremists on both sides to assassinate his brother and his former lover. No surprise, the PCs put a stop to it, but in the process a dracolich is unleashed from its prison by one of Prince John's men. One player says "You know we are only 4th level right?" The other players are starting to hate on Prince John now.

The gnomish artificer PC's uncle is imprisoned by Prince John in the Tower of London (fantasy equivalent), and the PCs decide to free him because theyre the good guys and he has critical intel. They have a lot of fun breaking into the tower dungeons, but they get grisly details of the sorts of tortures that await dissidents against the Prince. The PC's uncle is missing several teeth and fingernails, and is terrified whenever someone mentions tacks, screws, or nails from then on. The players tell me, "Prince John has got to go down. Yes, definitely we will kill him when we see him next."

They escort the bastard son to the King's castle. The king is dying of illness, and Prince John is close to sezing power but must wait for his dear old dad to die first. Welcomed as minor heroes for their recent deeds, the PCs sit at the royal feast table and who is sitting across from them? Prince John. the bard player is incredulous, "You mean he is right there? Across the table from us?" Some very under the table smack talking does occur, drenched in civilties, the PCs trying to figure out Prince John's agenda and he theirs. It is very tense. Then the PCs discover that there is a shape shifting monster haunting the land, and it's death toll is rising; the king is prepared to pay them from the royal coffers if they rid the land of the monster. prince John readily agrees with his father. "Wait a minute, we're not working for Prince John, are we?" Ask the players.

Turns out the monster was Princess Cursed (not her real name), Prince John's dear sister, and that Prince John's agent had been exacerbating the curse and manipulating Princess Cursed into killing off his politicl enemies. The players are like, "His own sister? This guy is eeevil!" Thankfully they manage to put the curse into stasis though they nearly kill Princess Cursed in the process. Of course, there is no evidence tying any of this back to Prince John.

The invoker PC (who is a low-ranking noble), sits in on a Crown Council convened by Prince John while his father is on his deathbed, putting forward his bid for the throne and revealing all his supporters and pledge to spake the kingdom strong again. The player is really nervous because he can't really voice opposition without getting targeted for assassination, so he makes token resistance. End result: the PCs need to to get a magic crown lost in the mountains before the Prince does, since it is the item the Prince needs to confirm his legitimacy over his brother Prince Charming. The players "have a bad feeling about this."

In the mountains, the PCs find slave labor camps under the heel of Prince John's men. They plan to free the slaves when they get back. The PCs sneak inside the flooded dungeon where the crown lies, only to be trapped inside by the Prince's forces with lots of undead, traps, and rising water. They hear several slaves get killed foil an attempt to weaken the PCs' resolve and flush them out because its what Prince John would do! Then the Prince's forces ambush them at the crown, destroy the PCs' escape route, and a vicious fight ensues which the PCs barely survive and most are poisoned. "Damn Prince John!" Has become their battle cry at this point.

Back in town they have to gather noble allies during a tournament. Everything goes to hell. The bard PCs secret contact with the Queen is discovered and an ambush is set up during their one-on-one which he narrowly evades. Bugbear assassins hit the PCs while they sleep. An important noble whose support they were courting is "accidentally" killed in the tournament. And then Prince John invites them to his tent to watch the jousting event with him, realizing that he has his bastard son with him now and is grooming the boy to be Prince John #2. While a PC jousts, he reveals that he has taken his old lover captive and is looking forward to deflowering her virtue now that she is a nun. And, oh by the way, my crossbowman sniper is going to kill your friend there if he starts to win the joust. After much scrambling, the PCs save their paladin by a hair. "How are we going to beat this Prince?" Bemoans the party rogue.

Finally the king expires and Prince John claims the throne. Thankfully, the PCs got the crown before him, so he only has half the support of the kingdom's nobles he would otherwise have. It's civil war! And as much as the PCs were trying to avoid it, at least now they can stab Prince John in the face and call him silly names, right? Well, first they've got to lead a daring strike on his fortified keep on an island in the middle of a lake. "Wait a minute," says the swordmage PC, " you mean my family's old keep? Damn you, Prin John!" And it is also revealed he is controlling the dracolich, which the PCs must face after wading thru an entire contingent of soldiers led by the very captian they'd tortured at the beginning of the campaign. He explains how he was having second thoughts about Prince John, but that the brutality of his treatment at their hands proved that there were no good guys in this fight. Full of remorse, the PCs realize that Prince John has been recruiting from those who the PCs have hurt the most in their adventures. They are about to do a sword point conversion of the captain when they see the dracolich maul Prince Charming on the battlefield. What do they do?

With their covert plan shot to hell, the PCs begin a desperate melee to save the Prince, leaving the captain to slink away. Prince John is able to speak thru the creature's voice, issuing demands for their surrender, including making the paladin his pissboy and the rogue his concubine. For a moment the PCs wonder if they can negotiate a surrender that doesn't involve having to lay siege to the Prince's keep. "Wait, we're not seriously considering letting him get away with this, are we?" The bard acts as the party's conscience, bolstering their flagging courage. They are already hurting. After fighting the dracolich and slaying it, they are really hurting. And they've got an entire keep to invade next? At least they can wait for their reinforcements which they've gathered over the course of the campaign...right?

Wrong. Prince John is conducting a ritual, and the invoker realizes it is to link his life to his bastard son, much like a lich's phylactery only for a living being, meaning if Prince John were to die so would his son...or perhaps he'd be able to posses his son, it wasn't clear. Moreover the ritual would be completed in an hour. Unable to get a break, the PCs scrap together what support they can muster immediately, and push out across a boat to the keep. They are down many of their abilities and healing resources, and the mood is a bit grim. An NPC asks, "What hope do we really have? It's just us few dozen and he has an army of mercenaries, black knights, and monsters." The players know this all too well. Their concern, however, is who the ritual caster is...the Prince? Or one of the swordmage PC's family he corrupted?

There is a bit of puzzle solving reaching the keep, some tragic roleplaying when the swordmage PC realizes what Prince John did to her family, and then bloodshed. Lots and lots of bloodshed. At last ehy face the Prince John who has hounded their every step throughout the campaign. They hate his guts, he hates their guts, the bard and him exchange some real choice words. The PCs think they can use this as their sepia traction to get the best on his elite forces. Little do they realize that Prince John is doing exactly the same. Summoned demons surprise them, just as they spring their ambush! "Wait, did the villain just out-player us?" Laughed the invoker's player in look of shock.

Their victory was never ensured. It took every bit of cunning, every resource they had, and every lucky roll. When they defeated Prince John it was not because it was what the story demanded or because the DM "let them win", it was because they earned their victory over a tenacious and extremely intelligent enemy who they'd been waiting an entire year-long campaign to mouth off to.

Naturally, the attack that brought Prince John down was the bard's Vicious Mockery.

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[Stormonu]

Kill 'em.

I've had two different occassions where this happened to the players I DMed. In the first instance, the player of the samurai character mouthed off to a king who had "asked" the party for help. I should say, the group as a whole had a reputation for telling off others already, and somewhat come to expect they could throw their weight around as they pleased. They were a might surprised when this warrior-king strode down to the samurai, and without a word, whacked off the character's head (with a vorpal weapon), and had the body burned in front of the remaining characters to prevent his resurrection (the party did manage to later resurrect the dead samurai with a more powerful spell, but it basically cost them all their treasure from the king's task). I have to say they learned their lesson after that one.

Another time, another party decided to cut the banter with the bad guy short by attacking him mid-monologue. If they'd listened to the monologue, they might have figured out how to beat him. Instead, he trounced the party; by the end of the fight, the party was literally begging not to be killed. However, the bad guy would have none of that - they hadn't listened to him, why should he in turn listen to them? He then killed each party member in the order they'd attacked him. Luckily for the party, they did have information he wanted from them, so he later had them resurrected and tortured. They eventually escaped but after that, the players were a tad more cautious about lashing out so wildly.

 

[Celebrim]

In all the years I have DMed, I don't think I have ever had a BBEG successfully intimidate a PC.

It does take a lot. The last time it happened went like this:

"Me: The figure shrouded in shifting shadows raises his hand and pronounces a word. A ray of shimmering blue lances out. Take 80 points of damage."

"PC: Oh crap, I'm going to die."

"Other PCs: Oh crap, that would have one shotted anyone else in the party."

Most of the time, it is done in an immature way to boot.

I've been DMing for 30 years and I still don't know what to do with players that are always mouthing off at inappropriate times and generally not responding to the fiction of the scene. It's not just when in the presence of a scary bad guy failing to remember that this guy is evil, doesn't like them, and has 12 more levels than they do. It's not just when they are meeting with the king who is the most politically powerful authority figure within 400 miles, rules nearly half a million subjects, and with whom even other kings are diffident, and they start talking to him like they'd talk to a long acquaintance. (Seriously, guys, that's the way you'd talk when introduced to the Prime Minister of England, or the President of the United States. No honorific? No deference? No formality?). It's when they are speaking to a newly widowed young woman whose husband has been ripped apart in front of her eyes, and they start cracking jokes about it.

Even when I tell the players, "Anything you say at the table that isn't a question for the DM is IC.", I still get crap where the players insult NPCs or PCs and then go, "Oh, that was meant to be OOC.", but only after there are consequences that they'd rather not have. If the consequences are amusing, they never complain about the remarks being taken IC.

I'd be ok if this was appropriate to the character, and the player had established that he was playing an Axel Foley or John McClain style wiseguy... and the player was actually capable of pulling that off. I could at least have the villain respond to actual banter. But generally, the players aren't actually bantering with the villain. They are playing off each other in a space outside the fiction, or lost in some private world laughing at their own joke. I could live with that to a certain extent, but if you tolerate it, pretty soon it becomes the whole of the game. You stop playing an RPG and just spend 4 hours goofing off around the table. If that happens, for long, people get bored and drift out.

Fortunately, it seems to come and go with most groups. Sometimes they are in to it. Sometimes they aren't.

 

[TwoSix]

It does take a lot. The last time it happened went like this:

"Me: The figure shrouded in shifting shadows raises his hand and pronounces a word. A ray of shimmering blue lances out. Take 80 points of damage."

"PC: Oh crap, I'm going to die."

"Other PCs: Oh crap, that would have one shotted anyone else in the party."

Yep. Opening up with an implosion usually wakes the PCs up. Bonus points if they're still in the single digit levels.