D&D 5E Does WotC suck at selling games?

[Umbran]

He used the latest launch as an example how they havent really done anything to try and reach beyond the core market in a meaningful way to "get more fish into the net" based on the what Mearls said 2 years ago about the state of the industry.

Which means he's writing as if businesses don't change their plans or goals over the course of multiple years.

Its like comics ... Super heroes are HUGE! but comic sales still suck.

An interesting analogy - as this very week Hasbro is in a court case to clear up movie rights.

AngryDM seems to have missed the memo where they've said the goal is now about profits for the brand, not driving sales of the RPG directly.

Though, it occurs to me that a *good* D&D movie might bring people into the hobby better than any tutorial product could....

 

[pemerton]

While I don't love the game, properly, Apocalypse World (and its various hacks) does it right, in my opinion. I believe the green box would greatly benefit from starting with some principles and DM moves, even if they avoided any relation with the actual rules of the game explained latter.

I think there are lots of examples of non-D&D games which have better ways of presenting and explaining how to GM the game.

I'm going to disagree with [MENTION=83398]roadtoad[/MENTION]'s post upthread - for me, Chapter 8 of Moldvay Basic is far-and-away the best version of GMing instructions ever written for D&D.

Because B/X is mostly an exploration-oriented game, those instructions tell the GM, step-by-step, how to construct an area to be explored. With a properly-worked example.

More modern editions of D&D make action resolution a much bigger part of the game. So the key to GMing becomes adjudication of action resolution. But the advice on that - incuding in 4e - is just terrible. For instance, both the 4e DMG and the Essentials RC/DM kit included examples of skill challenge resolution in which the GM uses techniques that are no where called out or explained in the instructional text. Only someone who was already familiar with those techniques (most likely from reading better-written rulebooks for other systems) would be able to work out how the GM did what s/he did in the example.

Perhaps the RPG market really is saturated. But that's really not an excuse for writing terrible manuals, when good examples exist and one of them is over 30 years old and wholly owned by WotC.

 

[Mistwell]

The research CCP (Eve Online) did, according to Ryan Dancey, showed that the tabletop gaming player base was transitioning to a MMORPG player base. The MMO market contains a high percentage of lapsed tabletop gamers who have no intention of going back. MMOs fulfil their needs better. They just didn't know it 30 years ago.

Unless it was a trend that is now dying, or unless generationally people come back around to wanting to be around their friends in person...like they are doing with board games now.

Indeed, Dancey's research was for growing EVE, but since then EVE is dying.

Dancey did not find that people will never come back to TTRPGs, just that they were leaving for MMORPG at that time and when leaving they did not have any plans at the time to come back. Much like they had no plan to ditch EVE once they left...but they are. And much like they had no intention of going to Board Gaming once they left, but they are.

This is all about trends really, not permanent changes. And I think the AngryDM and Mike Mearls are correct that the trending is there to support people coming back to TTRPGs, just as the trending was there years ago for them to leave for MMORPGs, and then leave for board games. Geek culture definitely seems like it is swinging towards the table top and away from the console gaming at the moment, and D&D should try and take advantage of that swing.

 

[Dire Bare]

AngryDM seems to have missed the memo where they've said the goal is now about profits for the brand, not driving sales of the RPG directly.

He didn't miss the memo. The memo is irrelevant to his point. While WotC/Hasbro may indeed be looking at the overall D&D brand profits over the RPG profits, that doesn't change the fact that their marketing to bring in noob players to the RPG sucks. Why would WotC not want to bring in as many new folks into the hobby as possible and ride that nerd-cool wave that other nerdy past-times are enjoying? Whether the next D&D movie (or video game or other "transmedia" property) sells mucho bucks or tanks horribly, the game itself can find it's own success (or not). Also, Mearls and crew are in charge of the RPG game, not the movie rights, or the video game rights, or the rest of the transmedia pie. While they are wise to work in close partnership with the non-RPG elements of the D&D brand, ultimately their responsibility is to make 5E the best game it can be and to sell it to as many people as possible.

And a well-done beginner's product would go a long way towards that goal.

The various board games provide a bridge into the hobby and the two existing MMO's (and any future video games) also provide a bridge . . . but once you cross that bridge and say to yourself, "Self, I want to play real D&D at my kitchen table with my nerdy-but-D&D-ignorant friends" . . . where do you go if you don't have an "elder cousin"? The PHB? No. The Basic Rules? No. The Starter Set? Well, that's it's purpose (in part), but it isn't very good at delivering on that purpose.

Mearls & crew haven't sunk the ship yet or doomed the new edition. They can still create the kinds of products needed to make 5E the edition that finally breaks the tepid "older cousin" model of recruitment. Which is why I really hope Mearls reads The Angry DM's rant and takes it to heart.

 

[Morrus]

The Starter Set? Well, that's it's purpose (in part), but it isn't very good at delivering on that purpose.

I think it is.

I also think new player acquisuition can take place after they've finished writing the rules. They're a small team and they're all-hands-on-deck right now.

Right now the priority is awareness (the mass-media campaign, the articles in NYT and Forbes, Acq. Inc games at PAX and the like) and getting the hardcovers done. Reaching out to new players hasn't happened yet; but it will. All the peices are still being put into place.

The intraweb is an impatient place.

 

[Morrus]

Unless it was a trend that is now dying, or unless generationally people come back around to wanting to be around their friends in person...like they are doing with board games now.

Indeed, Dancey's research was for growing EVE, but since then EVE is dying.

Sure. He has current theories about MMOs, and the ways some of what he calls "theme park" MMOs (I assume that's a term) are dying, but I'm not familair enough with that market to have an opinion on them.

This is all about trends really, not permanent changes. And I think the AngryDM and Mike Mearls are correct that the trending is there to support people coming back to TTRPGs, just as the trending was there years ago for them to leave for MMORPGs, and then leave for board games. Geek culture definitely seems like it is swinging towards the table top and away from the console gaming at the moment, and D&D should try and take advantage of that swing.

I don't disagree. I feel like tabletop gaming is on the rise. I can't wait until we run our massive market research survey next year. We'll be finding this sort of stuff out for 100% certainty. It's going to be really interesting, I think.

 

[Dire Bare]

I also think new player acquisuition can take place after they've finished writing the rules. They're a small team and they're all-hands-on-deck right now.

Right now the priority is awareness (the mass-media campaign, the articles in NYT and Forbes, Acq. Inc games at PAX and the like) and getting the hardcovers done. Reaching out to new players hasn't happened yet; but it will. All the pieces are still being put into place.

The intraweb is an impatient place.

That was my closing line, that it certainly isn't too late to create these sorts of products and initiatives. You're right, of course, that the D&D RPG team is small and can only do so much at a time. They've chosen to get the rules solidified and release them to the existing fanbase first, with (hopeful, possible) aggressive marketing towards RPG noobs to come later. And I am certainly suffering from today's "want-it-now" syndrome, as is AngryDM . . . .

But, his point is still valid (IMO, of course). The initial D&D release has stuck to tradition rather than innovating with the initial product line . . . and that seems okay on the surface to those of us who have been purchasing PHBs, MMs, DMGs, and mediocre-to-poor Starter Sets for decades now. And it only incrementally grows the market while the potential for so much more is right there . . . I certainly had no problems devouring the new PHB, but I'm no noob (well, at least not at D&D).

We may just get the perfect beginner product at some point down the line, I hope so. But I feel the same way AngryDM does . . . right now, and for decades before, if a friend who has no experience with D&D wants to give it a try and I don't have the time/energy/inclination to act as their "elder cousin" (why do I keep picturing elves whenever I use this term?) I've got nowhere I'm comfortable pointing them to. By default, I'll recommend the current Starter Set, and while I don't think it is a terrible product, I don't think it is optimally designed to take a D&D-curious nerd and excite them into becoming not just a player, but a new DM and grow the market/hobby. I have tons of nerdy friends who have tried D&D at some point in the past, and were turned off by the complexity and arcaneness of the game (either in truth or in perception).

I feel like tabletop gaming is on the rise. I can't wait until we run our massive market research survey next year. We'll be finding this sort of stuff out for 100% certainty. It's going to be really interesting, I think.

Now, that sounds interesting! Can't wait Morrus!

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I definitely agree with the article is the concept of a real DM teaching manual.


I learned DMing when I was 20...and I remembered being terrified that I was going to screw it up! My friend (our groups DM) gave me a sample adventure to run, walked me through the basics, gave me advice. A few sessions...and the rest was history. But without that initial training, I might never have started.


The other point I agree with is the concept of....getting them rolling dice on page 1.

Video Games tutorials learned this lesson. You don't spend 5-10 minutes going through all the rules at the beginning of the game. The players start moving, you teach them a few things and off they go...then you add a little more, than a little more. I think a starter kit can do the same thing.

 

[Thank Dog]

I often feel like I am DMing for monkeys.

This also begs the question: If you gave a million monkeys a million copies of the Core Rules, given enough time would one eventually produce the Tomb of Horrors?

Yes, although with one variation. A recurring theme of flung feces

 

[Mishihari Lord]

WOTC can sell games. Magic: The Gathering shows this all by itself. RPGs are just much harder to sell.