D&D 5E Does WotC suck at selling games?

[Giltonio_Santos]

While I don't love the game, properly, Apocalypse World (and its various hacks) does it right, in my opinion. I believe the green box would greatly benefit from starting with some principles and DM moves, even if they avoided any relation with the actual rules of the game explained latter.

 

[drjones]

I thought the 4e DM's Guide did a great job of teaching people how to be a Dungeon Master. Those first 30-some pages had some of the best "how to run a game" advice I've ever read, and I've been running games for over 30 years.

Very true, that DMG was the book I wish I had when I set out to DM 2nd edition way back in the day. I recently stated mothballing my 4e stuff and that book and the Dark Sun stuff is the only thing staying on my shelf.

 

[Mistwell]

I think it is fundamentally wrong because the whole things assumes that as other "geek culture" things grow, so also should tabletop RPGs grow.
It doesn't work that way.

The portion of the population who will sit around a table and pretend to be an elf isn't really changing.

The number of people willing to sit around a table and play board gamed did change upward though. And the number of people willing to sit around pretending to be an elf online (in video games) did change upward though. So, why isn't it at least somewhat likely that the number of people willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf hasn't also changed upward, but-for an issue communicating it to those people? I am not saying we know this for certain, but I think in terms of trends it seems plausible and perhaps even likely to be the case.

 

[Morrus]

The number of people willing to sit around a table and play board gamed did change upward though. And the number of people willing to sit around pretending to be an elf online (in video games) did change upward though. So, why isn't it at least somewhat likely that the number of people willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf hasn't also changed upward, but-for an issue communicating it to those people? I am not saying we know this for certain, but I think in terms of trends it seems plausible and perhaps even likely to be the case.

The research CCP (Eve Online) did, according to Ryan Dancey, showed that the tabletop gaming player base was transitioning to a MMORPG player base. The MMO market contains a high percentage of lapsed tabletop gamers who have no intention of going back. MMOs fulfil their needs better. They just didn't know it 30 years ago.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think it is fundamentally wrong because the whole things assumes that as other "geek culture" things grow, so also should tabletop RPGs grow.
It doesn't work that way.

The portion of the population who will sit around a table and pretend to be an elf isn't really changing. The fact that playing dress-up at social events and pretending to be an elf behind the anonymity of a computer are growing in popularity doesn't not contradict that, nor does it demand any correlation.

Obviously WotC is kicking butt at selling 5E *to the real, existing market base*.

Being a DM has always had its challenges. But the challenge of getting good at it has never been the rate limiting step. The DESIRE to do so is what dominates the math.

I'm sure you could get a non-zero change by making it easier to get started DMing. But if you are looking at the entire population as your reference, the change will be insignificant.

If you are selling bicycles to animals, it might not hurt to increase the ease of learning so that 80% of the monkeys can learn rather than 60%. But if the animals are 95% jellyfish and 5% monkeys then you only gain 1%. And it may turn out that 35% of your monkeys don't care how easy it ease, they just don't want to bother.

I disagree. The mass adoption of formerly geeky things like the fantasy genre (LotR, Game of Thrones) and cooperative strategy games (WoW) means that concepts and details that might have been a barrier to entry 20 years ago aren't anymore. A typical 14-year-old doesn't need to be told what an elf is or even what a cleric does in combat. That means it's way easier to show him or her how to play d&d.

 

[diaglo]

The Angry DM thinks so. What do you think?

i have little to base it on for 5th edition. if he wants to rail against other editions i have years of material to present and cite.

 

[arjomanes]

WotC is doing a much better job selling D&D than TSR. Remember when TSR wouldn't let E.T. use the D&D branding or call the game they were playing Dungeons & Dragons? Contrast that with Big Bang Theory and Community, not to mention the clebrity Audible giveaway, the celebrity game sessions, the podcast and blogger reviews, and the news about d&d on pretty much every news site ever. Also, D&D is focused less on Gygaxian System Mastery than ever before, and they are creating good side products with the D&D brand, such as the awesome board games.

And obviously they're doing very well considering the Amazon numbers, so it's a bit much to say they suck at their jobs.

I think the Starter Set is very approachable. Yes it requires reading, or at least skimming, 30 whole pages of rules. If someone can't do that will they really want to play a tabletop game? It's not D&D's job to convince someone who won't like D&D to play the game. And the Adventurer's League is supposed to be even more approachable, and is the best way to convert Magic players who see the game being played in the stores.

Now AngryDM has a good idea: make a nice accessible tutorial on the new D&D website, but the whole negative rant buries the good idea. And who knows, maybe WotC is working on something along those lines. Considering the Monster Manual isn't even out yet, it's impossible to know what their future plans are.

EDIT: Case in point: Amazon looks like it might be sold out of the Players Handbook.

 

[BryonD]

I disagree. The mass adoption of formerly geeky things like the fantasy genre (LotR, Game of Thrones) and cooperative strategy games (WoW) means that concepts and details that might have been a barrier to entry 20 years ago aren't anymore. A typical 14-year-old doesn't need to be told what an elf is or even what a cleric does in combat. That means it's way easier to show him or her how to play d&d.

I don't think there were that many 14-year-olds confused about elves in the early 80s. (or mid-90s if you want 20 years ago).
Knowing what a cleric does in combat doesn't lead to an active desire to sit around a table pretending to be one.

 

[BryonD]

The number of people willing to sit around a table and play board gamed did change upward though. And the number of people willing to sit around pretending to be an elf online (in video games) did change upward though. So, why isn't it at least somewhat likely that the number of people willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf hasn't also changed upward, but-for an issue communicating it to those people? I am not saying we know this for certain, but I think in terms of trends it seems plausible and perhaps even likely to be the case.

I don't know why.
I mean, quite obviously, *I* personally do like it. So I don't have a good read on people who don't.
But I have certainly not observed any change in trend. (the article makes point that the change in trend is quite lacking)
I know people who would play D&D in the 80s and people who would not. The general range of the "would" group has not changed. A lot of the people in the "would not" group think MMOs, conventions, etc... are awesome. And yet they have ZERO interest in tabletop RPGs.

But, to be clear, I'm not saying my personal experience in the evidence. I'm saying the perpetuation on the condition is the evidence and my experience shines a tiny but consistent light on it.

And, of course, there is also the fraction of society that played D&D in the 80s but WON'T play TTRPGs now because other options (such as MMOs) fit their desires BETTER than their limited options decades ago.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I don't think there were that many 14-year-olds confused about elves in the early 80s. (or mid-90s if you want 20 years ago).
Knowing what a cleric does in combat doesn't lead to an active desire to sit around a table pretending to be one.

1. Okay, orcs.
2. The former is actually a prerequisite for the latter. So an increase the former should be correlated by an increase in the latter.