D&D 5E Dungeonscape no more?

[Nebulous]

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but if I'm using a Character Builder app, I expect it to do all that heavy lifting for me. I don't want to have to reference the generation method in order to know how many feats to choose, which prerequisites apply, and so forth.

Now, it's certainly the case that it would be better if the tool could be configured to apply house rules, but the nature of software necessarily limits what can be done here (and didn't the 4e app provide some limited functionality of this sort?). In any case, if I have to choose between a tool that does the heavy lifting for me but 'locks' me to RAW versus one that doesn't have the lock but doesn't do the work, then I'll take the 'lock' thanks.

YMMV, of course.

I DM and don't usually make characters, but i would need to have something with this sort of flexibility. Sure, do all the RAW calculations, but then let me break them if i need to, and make it clear that i'm breaking them.

 

[TDarien]

That is indeed exactly what it looks like. We call that "scope creep," and it's the devil whispering in the ears of developers and managers alike. Management wants more features to show to the higher-ups and advertise to the end user. Developers want to add bells and whistles and do cool fun stuff instead of workaday, "Today I will build a login page" tasks. And every new feature adds complexity and slows down the project.

I suspect the reason is much more simple. There was no money. Trapdoor very possibly was counting on revenue from the iOS version by now. There were rumors a few weeks ago that one of their developers quit, as well, which could explain the total lack of progress in the web application.

 

[Dausuul]

I suspect the reason is much more simple. There was no money. Trapdoor very possibly was counting on revenue from the iOS version by now. There were rumors a few weeks ago that one of their developers quit, as well, which could explain the total lack of progress in the web application.

That is entirely possible. If what people are saying about the iOS version is true, then it may have been simply the effort to develop three platforms at once that got them. I was going off what I saw in the web version (I don't have an iOS device).

 

[WizarDru]

Ye Gods, but this is frustrating. Just when I thought WotC had finally figured out the Internet and digital content and was going to finally fund a tool that was as good or better than what two enthusiasts made in their spare time....they drop the ball. I don't know the details and as a consumer, shouldn't. It's their business and they can do as they please, but they are leaving money on the table. AGAIN. This should be a no-brainer. D&D should march forward with technology...not require it, but embrace it and monetize their clients desire for it.

As Piratecat mentions, I don't want a version that virtually requires electronic tools to be as functional ever again, but the simplicity and joy of electronic tools enhancing my game? Yes, please. Characters stored in the cloud? Shared maps and chat functions? Quick reference and fast creation tools? Yes, yes and yes.

My greatest frustration stems from two simple things: the Character creator bundled with the 3.0 PHB should have been a sign of things to come (broken as it was in points) and my players can make Excel spreadsheets that do a significant chunk of this work in a few hours on the weekend. I don't mean to trivialize the efforts of the mulitple developers to tackle this problem nor to imply that it is easy. Clearly it is not (and my players work is far from equivalent to the scope of Dungeonscape)...but it also isn't the same as putting together an MMO, an indie video game or even some of the existing tools out there. Can it really be that hard to do something like license Roll20 (or develop a special branded version for D&D, like Webex does for many) or some similar product to generate something for their customers?

I mean, a great deal of the frustration comes from literally YEARS of missteps in this space. I'm not angry, I just wish they could get their collective act together. I don't mind them restricting digital products if they plan to offer their own; but then you need to actually OFFER your own. I have money, guys...LET ME GIVE IT TO YOU.

 

[Bugleyman]

I'm curious: why did you pre-order the DMG if WotC was explicitly not going to sell PDFs anytime soon and DungeonScape was going to be a paid service? You could just have bought access without having the physical book.

For me, the digital editions are a (necessary) supplement to hard copy, not a replacement.

 

[Mistwell]

Believe what you like...I canceled my Amazon pre-order today.

And if you read my posts you'll see that, despite my annoyance about PDFs, I've always said I was buying the core three in hard back. In fact, said that as recently as yesterday. In fact, this will be the first DMG that has ever been published that I will not buy. But there are always other customers. I mean look at 4E...

From August of this year, you made it quite clear to everyone you were taking your money elsewhere over this same issue...and now you appear to be trying to double-dip the mileage you get out of that, just a few months later:

If you want to write my opinion off as "rage-quitting," so be it, but I think I'll "merely" send my gaming dollars to companies that produce things I actually want. Which in the case of PDFs, is literally any other RPG publisher.

Who knows, maybe WotC can manage to build themselves another major competitor this time around.

WotC's current product offerings do not meet my needs, and so I'm reluctantly forced to take my money elsewhere. Which I deeply regret. Unless you think you know what I want better than I do, I really don't see what there is to disagree about.

But today, I require a comprehensive digital edition, and a company that fails to provide one simply isn't meeting my needs. If and when that changes, great, but that is the reality today.

It's quite simple, really. I like to buy free-standing digital versions of the RPGs I play for use on my iPad. If WotC won't provide the products I want, I'll give my money to a competitor that does. And I am quite clearly not the only one..

 

[billd91]

It's not just Silverlight, though. IMO, the approach taken by both WotC and Trapdoor on D&D technologies is fundamentally wrongheaded. Both of them tried to program in all the rules of the game; to have the computer not just keep track of your character/campaign data, but also apply the rules to that data. For example, the character generator walks you through the process of creating a character, making sure you only take skills you're entitled to, feats you're allowed, et cetera, et cetera. And then it crunches all the numbers for you as well.

Why is this wrongheaded? Three reasons:

• The software is much more complex, because it has to have the entire rulebook programmed into it.
• Any time new rules come out, or old rules are revised, you have to overhaul the software to accommodate the changes.
• And the real killer: D&D is played differently at every table. People make house rules. People make homebrewed stuff. The more your application "knows" about the rules, the less useful it is to anyone who doesn't play the game strictly by RAW. (And in 5E with its focus on rulings over rules, even playing strictly by RAW doesn't guarantee that a group will interpret the rules the same way the app designers do.)

For my money, electronic D&D tools should take a giant step away from trying to apply the rules. Instead, they should focus on providing easy access to the data (spells, skills, feats, class abilities, and so forth), and letting you quickly pull that data together in a useful way. I'm envisioning a tool where you start with a blank character sheet. You enter "Elf" in the Race section, and a little window pops up: "Import Race Abilities?" with options "High Elf," "Wild Elf," "Drow Elf," and "Do Not Import." If you click on one of the race options, it pulls in all the special abilities for your selected race, and puts them in the appropriate box on your sheet. Then you can go in and modify them however you like. If you click "Do Not Import," it just leaves everything like it is.

A tool like this would be vastly easier to build and maintain, and it would also do a far better job of supporting house rules and homebrewed options. There would still be a few areas where you'd do automatic calculation (e.g., skill bonuses); but even there, the option should exist to turn off autocalc and enter the numbers by hand.

If anything, this just tells me there's a market for more than one approach to an electronic product. And that's what's great right now about how far the open game license has gone with Pathfinder. There are fillable character sheets that handle some basic calculations, there are full-blown character builders, there are apps that organize by individual data element (spell, feat, class), apps that organize by released book, utilities that cover a specific use (summoned monsters), the PDFs from Paizo, and websites that compile the whole shebang and have a decent search engine (d20pfsrd.com). And if you aren't interested in any one or two of those products, the other ones are still there for you. I regularly use 5 of those tools when playing and running the game, depending on my information need and access to the internet.

That's "in general". On the specifics of a character builder that incorporates the rules - they can be invaluable depending on the complexity of the game and the characters. 3e, 4e, Champions - these are all games that benefit from a well-coded character builder of some sort. Maybe it's as simple as a spreadsheet that can correctly do your calculations like the one I put together for Champions and downloaded for Mutants and Masterminds. Maybe it's a more elaborate spreadsheet like HeroForge, relying on macros and offering a lot more capability but limiting the platforms on which it functions. Or maybe it's a full blown application like HeroLab - expensive but a big labor saver for making PF characters. The more complex the character building options, the more value a well-done character building utility has. And D&D 5 is lot less complex (so far) than 3e, PF, 4e, Champions, or Mutants and Masterminds. But that doesn't mean it can't benefit from a decent builder tool. Just as I wouldn't want a software company or WotC to paint themselves into a corner with the game needing a builder app to be playable, I wouldn't want them to categorically rule out making or supporting one either. Ruling out options is what would be wrong-headed.

 

[Bugleyman]

From August of this year, you made it quite clear to everyone you were ditching 5e over this same issue...and now you appear to be trying to double-dip the mileage you get out of that, just a few months later:

I appreciate that nuance is a lost art on the Internet, but I explicitly stated I was dumping 5E AFTER I BOUGHT THE CORE. In fact, on Monday I wrote:

"Correct. I'll take a look at Dungeonscape once released -- who knows, maybe they'll wow me -- but I suspect there will be some sort of DRM and/or run-time check which makes it a non-starter (for me). Still looking forward to picking up the DMG in print, though.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?62949-Bugleyman#ixzz3HexEGldt"

But please, feel free to continue to call me a liar...it seems very important to your narrative.

 

[Astrosicebear]

From August of this year, you made it quite clear to everyone you were ditching 5e over this same issue...and now you appear to be trying to double-dip the mileage you get out of that, just a few months later:

Id like to think you remembered all those posts. But now I know you are using search-fu.

 

[designbot]

I'd like to see WotC create an official digital ruleset (as an XML file or database or web service or whatever) that they would keep up-to-date (sort of like D&D Insider)—basically converting all the rules into machine-readable calculations—and then open up access to anyone who wants to develop tools that work with it.

They could either charge developers to license access, or make it free for developers and charge users—you'd need an authentication token from WotC to use any of the websites or apps that access the official rules.

If somebody copies the ruleset without authorization, they can shut them down with copyright claims, like they do already. Trying to make piracy impossible through obscurity or DRM is a complete waste of time.