D&D 5E Can my table focus on making things fun instead of optimizing?

[mcbobbo]

That's amazing empathy there, by dismissing other games as "lower forms of entertainment".

You're honestly comparing my lack of empathy for inanimate objects to your lack of empathy for actual people? And this says something about ME?

So let's ignore the games that everyone else is playing and act like your game is the one true D&D and anyone talking about anything else should just shut up.

You're trying to make this about me. This isn't about me, other than my opinions. You asked what I would say and I told you. There's no 'one true D&D' here. Tactical games are fine, and I hope you enjoy them. But roleplaying games are the absolute bees knees, and I suggest you give them a try some time, just in case you like them as much as I do. But if you don't, rock on with your bad self.

If you want me to not to optimize, you need to decrease the need to.

No, I actually don't. Or rather, I already have. There is absolutely no 'need' to optimize at my table. None.

Or are you saying that people shouldn't play sorcerers in Pathfinder?

As I said several pages ago, you would make a more believable character by selecting a sorcerer bloodline that fit your chosen theme. This wouldn't necessarily be better in a board game, but would in a game with roleplaying involved. I believe you are smart enough to understand what I meant, but do let me know if you want me to go over it again.

 

[mcbobbo]

If you want others to have fun, you need to listen to them. It is not at all fun to be spending hours in combats where I'm not doing anything effective. If you don't care about that, then it's not true that you want me to have fun in the game.

Which of my players told you that I don't listen to them?

Which one said that they spend hours in combats not doing anything effective?

Who said I don't care?

And finally, what does this have to do with being 'the best'? Do you not see a gap between 'nobody listens to me' and 'I am not the best' or 'I am ineffective' and 'I am not the best'? I sure can see a gap there. It's a wide world of fun stuff to do.

 

[prosfilaes]

You're honestly comparing my lack of empathy for inanimate objects to your lack of empathy for actual people? And this says something about ME?

You think you can say something is a "lower form of entertainment" without saying something about the people who play it? Do you think that doesn't reek with contempt for people who play those games?

But roleplaying games are the absolute bees knees, and I suggest you give them a try some time, just in case you like them as much as I do.

Again, when you brag about empathy, it really hurts your case when you show none. I've played a lot of games, and in my experience, D&D games have at least a 2:1 combat/tactical to roleplaying ratio, as a look at most of the adventures published for it will reveal. I don't optimize when playing Primetime Adventures or other games that don't reward it.

As I said several pages ago, you would make a more believable character by selecting a sorcerer bloodline that fit your chosen theme.

No, no you didn't. You made some assumptions about what a fantasy Asia might look like and what a kitsune must be like, because heaven forbid that any race besides humans can be something that's not simply a stereotype. You never asked about what the theme for the character was.

 

[mcbobbo]

You think you can say something is a "lower form of entertainment" without saying something about the people who play it? Do you think that doesn't reek with contempt for people who play those games?

You'd have a great point if I didn't play them myself. Except I do. And I love board games, just not as much as RPGs. Sorry if that's hard to grok.

Again, when you brag about empathy, it really hurts your case when you show none. I've played a lot of games, and in my experience, D&D games have at least a 2:1 combat/tactical to roleplaying ratio, as a look at most of the adventures published for it will reveal. I don't optimize when playing Primetime Adventures or other games that don't reward it.

5e doesn't even include the grid, so a 2:1 ratio of 'tactical' play is going to be a bit rough. Not all combat must be tactical, just as your PC can be less than perfect and you can still have fun. You're drifting here...

No, no you didn't. You made some assumptions about what a fantasy Asia might look like and what a kitsune must be like, because heaven forbid that any race besides humans can be something that's not simply a stereotype. You never asked about what the theme for the character was.

Dude, go look up mcbobbo on paizo.com and tell me if you think I have ever heard of Pathfinder. It isn't some sort of special snowflake. Kitsune are Inari. Fey are european. You can't blend those two themes without straining my suspension of disbelief. Fortunately, you're in no way required to care about how I feel about your character, so let's just let that one go.

 

[Authweight]

I find the best approach to getting "optimizers" involved more with the setting and roleplaying part of the game is to thread the two parts of the game together. Present them with a fight they know they cannot win without convincing the duke to send help. Create living dungeons in which the enemies will move to defeat the players actively, forcing them to hide, bluff, and run. Give them reasons to explore the room during a fight instead of after. Make your story moments happen in the middle of fights, and make the story affect the course of the battle.

This can really help players to engage with your world in a more meaningful way than hitting it. Make engagement useful and effective when compared to the strategy of "just hit it."

 

[pming]

Hiya.

WARNING: Old Grognardis Curmudgeonae thought streams below...

I don't like min/maxers...er..."optimizers", I guess the current politically correct term is. I don't enjoy listening to them drone on and on about how cool their sheet of stats is (it's almost never anything even approaching a character). I don't enjoy debating ever little rule with them. I certainly don't enjoy DM'ing their uber-character.

Now that that is established, I have had the misfortune of trying to DM one or two on occasion. The only thing that seems to work quickly, is a two-fold attack.

First: I have to be a bit more narrative in terms of running the game. Basically, try and keep "numbers" out of it. I won't say, "OK, you can shoot him from where you are if you want; it will be at +2 to hit", and in stead I'll say "OK, you can shoot him from where you are if you want; it will be more accurate". I don't actually use/say a numerical bonus. I've found taking the mentioning of numbers and specific game stuff (feats, spells, monsters, etc) out of the game as much as possible, to be a good thing. It may initially be a bit jarring and uncomfortable for an 'optimizer' to not actually know what "game specific thing" is going on other than the basics. It's kind of like watching an addict go through withdrawal, in a way. Some suffer though it, others snap and go find some other game to get their fix.

Second: Don't let the optimizer roll dice, if at all possible. If his character has +12 to hit and +24 damage on both his attacks (as a level 1 fighter in 3.x/PF, lets say)...don't let him roll dice when he attacks the 6 goblins. When it comes to his turn, I just say something like "Oh, yeah, Vorn the Vicious kills two goblins"...then I immediately move on to the next player. The optimizer is craving recognition of how kewl and l337 his character building skills are. Don't give it to him! If...er...when...he starts to complain about being "bored" or "not getting to play", I calmly start being honest with him on what's going on. I tell him "Really? You are bored because you don't get to roll 2, 20-sided dice to see if you get a 1? I mean, these goblins have AC 14 and 9hp; you will rarely miss, and any hit will instantly kill them. You know whats boring? Watching you roll dice just to see how high you can count. There is no challenge for your character. The excitement of combat is watching the dice roll to see if you did/didn't do something, or how well you did or didn't do it. Your character is so optimized that the dice roll is almost irreverent; your character is all but guaranteed to have the exact same outcome 95% of the time. There is no mystery or anticipation. You have taken almost all of the chance out of the equation. Ergo, why bother rolling dice and waste everyone else's time?".

I know that seems harsh, but as I said, I really *really* hate optimizers. And by optimizer I mean one who's every character building decision is based purely on the numbers game of what he is trying to achieve with that "build". Someone who makes a character that is really good at something (example, making an archer and choosing elf, ranger, and a feat or two that gives bonuses to archery) isn't "optimizing", IMHO. That is simply creating a character who is good at something. But when it's obvious that the player's primary focus for creating the character is to "game the system" and create the most broken "archer" as quickly as possible...that is "optimizing".

Of course, if you and your group ALL enjoy that part of the game...go for it! Min/Max to your hearts content. It's your game, play it the way you want. That said, if you show up to my game and get the treatment above...don't be surprised.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[prosfilaes]

You'd have a great point if I didn't play them myself.

What, pray-tell, do you think a lower form of entertainment means? That they're stored lower on the shelf?

5e doesn't even include the grid, so a 2:1 ratio of 'tactical' play is going to be a bit rough.

combat/tactical, not tactical combat.

your PC can be less than perfect

No PC is perfect. But they can all strive to be the best they can be.

Kitsune are Inari.

Which is not a concept in Pathfinder. As far as I can tell, you're not using the word right; they are associated with the kami Inari, who, not being an element of Golarion, is irrelevant to this discussion.

Fey are european.

And Europe is also not a concept in Pathfinder.

You can't blend those two themes without straining my suspension of disbelief.

Then perhaps you should play a game less syncretic then D&D and Pathfinder. Shenmen in Tian Xia is specifically listed as having evil fey as a major race in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer; even in canon, they're mixed.

 

[Crothian]

I feel like this hits my main complaint as a DM. I don't mind optimization at the table and expect it, however it can suck what makes the games entertaining for me out of the game.

Usually it leads my players to want to speed through the levels because they want that next optimization point over just having fun playing the game - including failing and having things go sideways.

I think one way to do it is to call optimizing what it is, being a munchkin. That's what it was called in the 80's and 90's and it was meant to be an insult. One way to discourage it is to have a few sessions with no combat and that do not reward the min maxing (another name we used to have for it) that the players are doing. In fact showcase what they are bad at. If the players feel use rope is a worthless skill then make it come up a few times in the the game session. One of the great powers of the DM is to focus the game how you want it. If you want more role playing then focus on that and create NPCs with depth and get into character. Have them talk in the first person and engage in conversations with the PCs who should also be talking in character.

Now be aware if you do this and the players don't like this kind of game they might rebel or abandon the game. Some players might whine and get passive aggressive but this is a step forward because you probably don't want players like that in your game anyway.

 

[mcbobbo]

What, pray-tell, do you think a lower form of entertainment means? That they're stored lower on the shelf?

What's your point? Optimizing is awesome because Bob insulted board games? What?

Which is not a concept in Pathfinder.

Golarion is a kitchen sink setting. Lisa made sure it would be when she discovered that TSR lost money every time they launched a new world. It draws on real world themes and common mythology to ensure there's a place for everything. It isn't supposed to be a realistic place, per se, and has very little of its own original mythology.

But again, what is your point here and how does it pertain to anyone but me?

 

[prosfilaes]

What's your point?

What's your point, besides needing the last word?