D&D 5E Clerics of Life: Broken, Bad Design, or Working as Intended?

[FormerlyHemlock]

So 1,100 might not be "deadly" deadly, but a full 1,800 would be deadly deadly deadly and spam with a side of deadly. If I had to guess I'd say 1,500 is probably the practical upward limit of total survivability without a short rest, and even then I think the remaining 2,000 before a long rest would have to be sliced pretty thinly.

It depends very much on the details of your party and their tactics. I had a party of 3rd and 4th level characters win an encounter against 1280 XP each (6400 between 5 characters; 3200 base XP x2 for quantity) using nothing more complicated than terrain, a Web spell, and the Sharpshooter feat. It was great excitement and very memorable, but it actually ended up not being that much of a resource drain and I bet they could have done it again. (They didn't need to, though, since they'd already met their objective during the first fight and could scram.)

Perhaps you mean to say that 1800 would be deadly, deadly, deadly only for the particular party that you're running the game for, but in the general case of 5th level PCs, I think there exist parties who are capable of handling way more than 1800 XP worth of foe per encounter.

-Max

 

[keterys]

Counting XP gets very complicated to compare if you use the quantity multipliers.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Counting XP gets very complicated to compare if you use the quantity multipliers.

That's true, but discussing difficulty when counting XP without using the quantity modifiers is totally pointless, since the encounter guidelines rely on the quantity modifiers when they set difficulty thresholds.

If you forgo quantity modifiers, you can make a deadly, deadly encounter for 8 5th level PCs just by using "200 XP" worth of kobolds... which is actually 800 XP worth of kobolds, which is actually 64 kobolds. Or conversely, you can spend 487 XP per character on a big brute like a Tyrannosaurus, which will look twice as hard as the kobolds but in reality will be ten times easier to kill due to having only 42% the HP and 1/10 the DPR. Using the quantity modifiers doesn't completely make these issues go away, but at least the Tyrannosaur will clock in at 1950 XP and the kobolds will clock in at twice that (4800 XP), which is closer to the reality.

 

[keterys]

That's true, but discussing difficulty when counting XP without using the quantity modifiers is totally pointless, since the encounter guidelines rely on the quantity modifiers when they set difficulty thresholds.

If you forgo quantity modifiers, you can make a deadly, deadly encounter for 8 5th level PCs just by using "200 XP" worth of kobolds... which is actually 800 XP worth of kobolds, which is actually 64 kobolds. Or conversely, you can spend 487 XP per character on a big brute like a Tyrannosaurus, which will look twice as hard as the kobolds but in reality will be ten times easier to kill due to having only 42% the HP and 1/10 the DPR. Using the quantity modifiers doesn't completely make these issues go away, but at least the Tyrannosaur will clock in at 1950 XP and the kobolds will clock in at twice that (4800 XP), which is closer to the reality.

Kobolds are one of the creatures that synergize the most, justifying the combat multiplier, and that still isn't really my experience at all. Depends on the battlefield and how you do initiative, but 64 kobolds can get pretty much obliterated by said 5th level characters. Attacks and damage bouncing off the heavy armor guys, fireball roasting a ton of them, etc. Obviously, it could also be Tucker's Kobolds and the poor PCs never have line of sight and are half dead before they can even draw a weapon.

Using a group of 8 as your example highlights part of the problem though. The PCs gained additional synergy and options from having more PCs too, but that's not accounted for. In fact, the reverse is.

Group of 4 facing 200 XP each of hobgoblins with multipliers in effect faces a total of 4 hobgoblins or 1 each, though they only _receive_ xp for half that amount.

Group of 8 facing 200 XP each of hobgoblins with multipliers in effect faces a total of faces less than 7 hobgoblins (1200xp for 6, 1750xp for 7), so they face less than 1 each, despite being more effective at taking them out as a group. Easier fights, whee.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Kobolds are one of the creatures that synergize the most, justifying the combat multiplier, and that still isn't really my experience at all. Depends on the battlefield and how you do initiative, but 64 kobolds can get pretty much obliterated by said 5th level characters. Attacks and damage bouncing off the heavy armor guys, fireball roasting a ton of them, etc. Obviously, it could also be Tucker's Kobolds and the poor PCs never have line of sight and are half dead before they can even draw a weapon.

Using a group of 8 as your example highlights part of the problem though. The PCs gained additional synergy and options from having more PCs too, but that's not accounted for. In fact, the reverse is.

Group of 4 facing 200 XP each of hobgoblins with multipliers in effect faces a total of 4 hobgoblins or 1 each, though they only _receive_ xp for half that amount.

Group of 8 facing 200 XP each of hobgoblins with multipliers in effect faces a total of faces less than 7 hobgoblins (1200xp for 6, 1750xp for 7), so they face less than 1 each, despite being more effective at taking them out as a group. Easier fights, whee.

I chose 8 because the OP has a group of 8 level 5 PCs.

Something seems to be wrong with your math. For 8 PCs, I make it 1600 total XP, which means 8 hobgoblins (7-10 is Gang, but use the Group modifier for XP because there are 8 PCs), not 6-7. You might be forgetting to adjust the multiplier based on PC group size per "Larger or Smaller Parties" paragraph.

I am less sanguine than you are about Fireballing 64 kobolds. They have missile weapons, you know, so you're only going to get a handful in the radius of any given fireball. They've got a quite-decent chance at killing anyone with a low AC. I would much, much rather fight a Tyrranosaurus.

-Max

 

[keterys]

Something seems to be wrong with your math. For 8 PCs, I make it 1600 total XP, which means 8 hobgoblins (7-10 is Gang, but use the Group modifier for XP because there are 8 PCs), not 6-7. You might be forgetting to adjust the multiplier based on PC group size per "Larger or Smaller Parties" paragraph.

Ah, my bad - so yeah you'd want to redo the math for 3 and 5 sized parties, which makes it less interesting. I'm glad they addressed it a little bit.

Anecdotally, I've seen fights with scores of kobolds and goblins. With ranged weapons, yep. If they know who to target and have access to that target, they can definitely do serious damage to that target, but otherwise they're in trouble. Things like a shield spell, cover, inability to get to soft targets. It all adds up a lot.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Anecdotally, I've seen fights with scores of kobolds and goblins. With ranged weapons, yep. If they know who to target and have access to that target, they can definitely do serious damage to that target, but otherwise they're in trouble. Things like a shield spell, cover, inability to get to soft targets. It all adds up a lot.

Yeah, if the PCs fight smart and use cover and range effectively, I agree: they will mop the floor even with a huge number of kobolds. (I haven't ever run a huge-number-of-kobolds fight, but I've seen one 7th level monk take on 7 hobgoblins, which is even harder IMHO... in that fight, cover was instrumental in winning the engagement. Sharpshooter would have trivialized the encounter but the monk of course did not take any archery-oriented feats.) I maintain however that it is even easier to beat a Tyrannosaurus, or a smaller group of kobolds, so in this case the XP multiplier is fully deserved--and I believe the appropriateness of XP multipliers was the topic under dispute.

 

[Zardnaar]

I threw 40 kobolds at a level 8 group. Thye took a semi decent amount of damage.

 

[keterys]

I maintain however that it is even easier to beat a Tyrannosaurus

Sure. I mean, he's only marginally more difficult than a flameskull which is almost a 1/4 of his XP. Big dumb brutes who do nothing special and can't focus fire are easy targets The hydra is a bit scarier at the same XP point - higher damage output, can focus fire, better hp total, better AC. Okay, wait, that's just strange. Is the T-Rex just off?

The Hill Giant has better range and is only slightly less tough and would be matched by 18 kobolds for a normal-sized group. I think I'd favor the hill giant for ability to do lasting harm. That said, I'll totally agree that 72 kobolds murder a hill giant or two pretty handily, if they have any ability to actually all attack.

 

[DMZ2112]

Counting XP gets very complicated to compare if you use the quantity multipliers.

Little bit of thread necromancy here, but it turns out this discussion is not over in my head.

It turns out that everything I've described up until this point in the thread has been wrong, at least insofar as I didn't realize the quantity multipliers were a thing. I just noticed them last night.

If you include the multipliers, the numbers are even more off, and encounters get even easier. What are other dungeon masters' experiences with this system? Do you find that the combination of XP budget and quantity multipliers is giving you accurately challenging encounters?

Even accounting for the size of my party (eight PCs) according to the guidelines in the RAW, a x3 multiplier for 11-14 enemies seems egregious.