D&D 5E Clerics of Life: Broken, Bad Design, or Working as Intended?

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I tried once or twice using the encounter building numbers and found them to not be all that great a predictor of combat ease. For my games there are just so many variables about who, when and where the fights occur (and the abilities the characters can bring to bear) that they served little to no positive use.

Instead, I just throw out interesting fights with a bunch of enemies on deck to be used. If they cut through the first group really easy... either I send in a second wave for them to fight, or another encounter might occur shortly thereafter (before a short rest can occur).

Granted... this is because I don't lay down a set number of proscripted enemies or fights beforehand, and instead the fights occur in whatever numbers seem dramatically appropriate or interesting. The "story" of the fights as they occur means more to me than the jigsaw puzzle of the "proper amount" of fights that occur. But I also know that is often an anathema to several other types of DMs... who set up their adventure sites as set pieces at certain levels and they let the chips fall as they may depending on when or where the party shows up. The encounters aren't changed to serve the party, the party deals with the location as it's designed.

This is illustrated beautifully by the hatred of many a DM of a second blue half-dragon showing up in Episode 3 of HotDQ should the first one be killed in Episode 1. I personally understand completely the point of why the writers put that in (they want another powerful enemy for the party to fight in the hatchery to make that dungeon dramatically interesting in of itself)... but I also understand why it also drives other DMs up a wall (where they consider one less enemy the party has to fight in the hatchery to be the "reward" for the success of killing the half-dragon in the end of Episode 1.) As I don't design my adventures and encounters in that style (and instead everything is more 4Eish where each encounter should be interesting and compelling in of itself, otherwise why bother doing it?)... every fight can and will be built on the fly for maximum enjoyment and thrill on the moment. So if another powerful warrior in the hatchery would make that fight more interesting (especially for the party's fighters to have a strong enemy to go against), then sure, I'll put one in. Maybe I wouldn't put in another blue half-dragon specifically... but the point of having another powerful warrior there is made and I'll go along with it.

Because my feeling is... if I build an encounter a certain way (like for instance via the encounter building guidelines) and the fight just ends up *sucking* for whatever reason... then there's no reason to stick with it. I'd rather have encounters that deviate from the guidelines but be awesome, than having a wonderfully mathematical layout of fights for the party to come upon but most of them being a waste of time and boring as heck. That's just the way I DM.
 
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From my experience, at least, Clerics of Life are definitely worth more CR than your average damage-sponging murderhobo. I ran a "deadly" encounter for a balanced eight-man 5th-level party including a Cleric of Life, and it ended with everyone on their feet.[/I]
Eight man, 5th level party? Fifty dead foes over nine rounds in cramped area? With all healing expend? Sounds good to me. Bottlenecks and area effects are how adventures do their stuff.

DMG has combat options for sneaking and forcing ones way through the defensive lines of foes as a Bonus Action.
 

YourSwordIsMine

First Post
I am currently playing a Cleric of Life (in ExploderWizards game), and I am the only character to have died (instant death at first level due to crit).

I got raised, and nearly died again due to some persistent Zombies.

I would not say Life Clerics are overpowered at all...
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Some group compositions are better than others.

Life clerics are good, but they have no ability to refresh spell slots like the druid and you can't underestimate the damage prevented by a bard's Inspirations in either build coupled with the refreshment of hps during rests.

There's tradeoffs here, and as in every edition, healing is not the be-all-end-all of encounter overcomeness.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Healing in old school D&D was how PC's kept going.
Healing in 5E is mostly about how PC's come back to fighting once down.

I'll 'splain some.

Your buddy just dropped...

You want your buddy to not die? In 5E, you make a medicine roll as an action, or expend a use of a healing kid. He'll live... he'll be back in 1-4 hours.

You want your buddy to fight again? apply the healing magic, and he's Ba-ack. As in, right back. If he goes after you in the round, he's back to function.

Fighter, he miscalculates, doesn't use his second wind. Gets dropped. Cleric or Druid pops him back to function. He then second winds, and probably is good for another round or two, more if he's got potions.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Healing in old school D&D was how PC's kept going.
Healing in 5E is mostly about how PC's come back to fighting once down.

I'll 'splain some.

Your buddy just dropped...

You want your buddy to not die? In 5E, you make a medicine roll as an action, or expend a use of a healing kid. He'll live... he'll be back in 1-4 hours.

You want your buddy to fight again? apply the healing magic, and he's Ba-ack. As in, right back. If he goes after you in the round, he's back to function.

Fighter, he miscalculates, doesn't use his second wind. Gets dropped. Cleric or Druid pops him back to function. He then second winds, and probably is good for another round or two, more if he's got potions.

In a situation like that, a Druid might even be better than a Life Cleric, because the Fighter might be taking more damage than the extra HPs of the Life Cleric can mitigate. If you're healing for 9 and I'm healing for 14 but you're getting dropped by hits of 19 damage, then the difference in throughput is irrelevant. The druid, however [if he is a Land Druid] can replenish those resources, which will afford more rounds of longevity over an adventuring day.

Meanwhile, the bard might throw in a few moments of 'whoops that didn't hit sorry' or speed up combat so that it takes less rounds and therefore less attacks taken by the fighter, cause DGH>healing if you can manage it.
 

Pickles JG

First Post
In a situation like that, a Druid might even be better than a Life Cleric, because the Fighter might be taking more damage than the extra HPs of the Life Cleric can mitigate. If you're healing for 9 and I'm healing for 14 but you're getting dropped by hits of 19 damage, then the difference in throughput is irrelevant. The druid, however [if he is a Land Druid] can replenish those resources, which will afford more rounds of longevity over an adventuring day.

Meanwhile, the bard might throw in a few moments of 'whoops that didn't hit sorry' or speed up combat so that it takes less rounds and therefore less attacks taken by the fighter, cause DGH>healing if you can manage it.

Life Cleric Channel Divinity heal more than makes up for this. They are outstanding healers. Druids have Goodberry which is the most efficient level 1 heal but Prayer of Healing (any domain) smashes that at level 3.

You are right that they are all good though - druids have good more spells so can do more stuff like blasting or controlling or (de)buffing, or can beast out - the utility of shapeshifting is huge even if you go the none combat land route.
 

If you don't like reactive healing, a potential fix is to reduce number of death checks from 3 to 1 (but allow Con bonus to apply) and bring back auto-death on -10 HP.

Hmmm, I just might do this.
 

gyor

Legend
A Fiendish Warlock with 2 levels of Life Cleric is a really great healer as well, he gets 1 of the Clerics Channel Divinity heals, has 3 level 1 Cleric spells, and assuming 2 short rests per adventuring day, can cast 12 5th level healing word or cure light wounds, and gets temp hps when she kills something, with the right invocations can still dish out damage and have utility magic as well.
 

gyor

Legend
Actually its kind of more focused healing, but a Paladin or Ranger who casts all thier spell slots on healing themselves when they're at a level were they share spell effects with thier Steed/Companion heal massive amounts of damage. Not of much use for the whole Party, but if its a solo adventure that could come in handy.

Think about it, each healing spell x2. With 1 level of Cleric of Life it gets even better.

But a Fey Knight Paladin is the most Soloable class in the game (although battle master fighter is close).
 

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