D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

[Zaruthustran]

I think others have addressed this, but the way I would phrase it is not that the problem is that bladelocks don't do as much damage as warriors (they would be overpowered if they did), but that they don't do as much damage as warlocks.

This. Warlocks are decent in combat (assuming Eldritch Blast). But they excel at noncombat and exploration. Even a first level Warlock can cast two Charm Person spells every hour. Given enough time, whoever you've captured is going to roll a 1 on that saving throw and become your best friend. The Patron spells (Sleep, in particular) are amazing, especially when you factor in that they're always cast at max spell level.

Also, remember that "short rest" doesn't necessarily mean "stationary." Warlocks are a Charisma class; surely they can convince the party to invest in a wagon (and someone else to drive it).

Lastly: invocations. Mask of Many Faces is fabulous, especially when combined with the Actor feat. For a laugh, foster infighting (literal or political) by casting the Friends cantrip while disguised as your favorite enemy. If you must get an Eldritch Blast cantrip, consider Repelling Blast instead of Agonizing. Sure, Agonizing gets you more damage. That's boring. Repelling Blast lets you bust grapples, knock targets into hazards (like your Cloud of Daggers or Hunger of Hadar), or even knock friends out of harm's way. If you have a pal with Polearm Master, you'll be his best friend.

Yes, the Warlock can be played as a archer with an eldritch bow. But if you want to play an archer with some magical tricks... play a Ranger. The Warlock is so much more.


I will note that warlocks have spells that are useful in interaction and exploration too--not just combat. So those rests can really help out. Is your DM aware of the assumed number of short rests per long rest? If I didn't know it, I'd like my players to inform me of it, particularly if it was relevant to a class someone was playing. The DM might be willing to change the class, change the length of a short rest, or just handwave short rests and say you are assumed to have the benefit of them whenever you enter non-combat situation.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This. Warlocks are decent in combat (assuming Eldritch Blast). But they excel at noncombat and exploration. Even a first level Warlock can cast two Charm Person spells every hour. Given enough time, whoever you've captured is going to roll a 1 on that saving throw and become your best friend. The Patron spells (Sleep, in particular) are amazing, especially when you factor in that they're always cast at max spell level.

Assuming, of course, that the Warlock spends all of her time in meditative rest, except a minute or two every hour to come out and cast a spell!

Also, remember that "short rest" doesn't necessarily mean "stationary." Warlocks are a Charisma class; surely they can convince the party to invest in a wagon (and someone else to drive it).

While this gives me wonderfully flavorful ideas of Warlocks as travelling-circus-performer "fortune-tellers," I feel like this somewhat neglects the spirit of the game as Adventure! stuff. And how many cities are going to take kindly to vagabonds running around their cities with travelling wagons.

Lastly: invocations. Mask of Many Faces is fabulous, especially when combined with the Actor feat. For a laugh, foster infighting (literal or political) by casting the Friends cantrip while disguised as your favorite enemy. If you must get an Eldritch Blast cantrip, consider Repelling Blast instead of Agonizing. Sure, Agonizing gets you more damage. That's boring. Repelling Blast lets you bust grapples, knock targets into hazards (like your Cloud of Daggers or Hunger of Hadar), or even knock friends out of harm's way. If you have a pal with Polearm Master, you'll be his best friend.

Invocations can be pretty bomb, sure. They can also be somewhat disappointing, and there's very little in the way of advice or assistance. Most of the "cast X spell once a day by expending a slot" ones are garbage, for example, while a select few of the at-will spell ones are incredibly useful. It's the "Fighter Feats" problem translated into caster form.

Yes, the Warlock can be played as a archer with an eldritch bow. But if you want to play an archer with some magical tricks... play a Ranger. The Warlock is so much more.

It might be. I'm not entirely convinced that it's that much more. Particularly when it's so easy to get that early on, when you're a fragile china doll, and then add other tricks on top later, when combat is not so incredibly dangerous.

On that note, though? The Warlock, if it had sufficient advice for how to leverage its strengths, is more-or-less the baseline I'd like to see for a "complex Fighter." I'd prefer the maneuvers to be more common, of course, but having actual maneuver advancement (rather than merely the occasional die size/DC increases) would be really nice, and having both options that interface with the exploration/interaction pillars as well as ones that make you More Awesome At Combat would be even better.

 

[Celtavian]

To maximize the Lifedrinker/Blade Pact class feature, couldn't you make a Fighter/Warlock? All the prereqs say is 12th level (not required all levels be warlock) and Blade Pact feature (3rd level warlock to obtain). Couldn't you make an exceptionally nasty multiclass polearm or GWF warlock/fighter with Blade Pact Fiend Warlock and Fighter (EK or Battle-master) warlock?

 

[Mephista]

To maximize the Lifedrinker/Blade Pact class feature, couldn't you make a Fighter/Warlock? All the prereqs say is 12th level (not required all levels be warlock) and Blade Pact feature (3rd level warlock to obtain). Couldn't you make an exceptionally nasty multiclass polearm or GWF warlock/fighter with Blade Pact Fiend Warlock and Fighter (EK or Battle-master) warlock?

First, let me say that we've had the writers clarify that - the references to level are, in fact, class level. So, yes, you must be level 12 warlock, not level 3 warlock, Fighter 9, to get Lifedrinker. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/19/requisite-for-warlocks-invocations/

That said, taking a single level of Fighter and then focusing on Warlock often helps with the other issues. But I was under the impression the discussion was about the pure warlock class - there's still something fundamentally wrong with the class if you need to multi-class to make the base class work.

 

[Jaelommiss]

To maximize the Lifedrinker/Blade Pact class feature, couldn't you make a Fighter/Warlock? All the prereqs say is 12th level (not required all levels be warlock) and Blade Pact feature (3rd level warlock to obtain). Couldn't you make an exceptionally nasty multiclass polearm or GWF warlock/fighter with Blade Pact Fiend Warlock and Fighter (EK or Battle-master) warlock?

I thought it was based off of overall level when I first read it, but decided that RAW or not that I'd base it off of class level at my table. Consider a level 7 character with only two levels in warlock. Could they take the Dreadful Word invocation? It allows the warlock to cast Confusion once per day with a warlock spell slot. Would you allow the warlock to cast a 4th level spell using their 1st level warlock slots? Suppose they were level 9 instead. Minions of Chaos would grant Conjure Elemental once per day with a first level slot.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Lastly: invocations. Mask of Many Faces is fabulous, especially when combined with the Actor feat. For a laugh, foster infighting (literal or political) by casting the Friends cantrip while disguised as your favorite enemy. If you must get an Eldritch Blast cantrip, consider Repelling Blast instead of Agonizing. Sure, Agonizing gets you more damage. That's boring. Repelling Blast lets you bust grapples, knock targets into hazards (like your Cloud of Daggers or Hunger of Hadar), or even knock friends out of harm's way. If you have a pal with Polearm Master, you'll be his best friend.

Repelling is decent, but it's directly away. Its hard to line up pool shots to get something into a position in many circumstances, as the warlock in my game noticed. I try and give her terrain to push stuff into, let her knock two guys and prone them is she takes disadvantage, etc. But really Agonizing gives so much you're shooting yourself in the foot to not take it. It frankly should have been a class feature.

Yes, the Warlock can be played as a archer with an eldritch bow. But if you want to play an archer with some magical tricks... play a Ranger. The Warlock is so much more.

As written, I'm not really sure. They just gain so little for sticking with warlock, when they could jump ship to bard and have a ton more toys, plus actually contribute more when the DM doesnt feel like carefully building every adventure to ensure the requisite amounts of short rests to make them on par with other classes. I'm playing a warlock (shair pact)/bard in an online Al-Quadim game. I was planning on taking more warlock levels, but its tough to justify. I have more spells, more rituals, more skills, more everything and can still cast disguise self and silent image at will. The higher level warlock invocations are generally pretty mediocre, certainly not worth sticking with the class.

I will note that warlocks have spells that are useful in interaction and exploration too--not just combat. So those rests can really help out. Is your DM aware of the assumed number of short rests per long rest? If I didn't know it, I'd like my players to inform me of it, particularly if it was relevant to a class someone was playing. The DM might be willing to change the class, change the length of a short rest, or just handwave short rests and say you are assumed to have the benefit of them whenever you enter non-combat situation.

Sure, anything can work if your DM makes it. I mean, I've house ruled a number of patches to the class in the game I run, but it doesn't make it great out of the PHB.

 

[Celtavian]

First, let me say that we've had the writers clarify that - the references to level are, in fact, class level. So, yes, you must be level 12 warlock, not level 3 warlock, Fighter 9, to get Lifedrinker. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/19/requisite-for-warlocks-invocations/

That said, taking a single level of Fighter and then focusing on Warlock often helps with the other issues. But I was under the impression the discussion was about the pure warlock class - there's still something fundamentally wrong with the class if you need to multi-class to make the base class work.

That's too bad. That would have been an awesome combination.

 

[Ahrimon]

That's too bad. That would have been an awesome combination.

However those "clarifications" are just their thoughts and/or how they would call it in a game. Many players don't care about or don't use how those two folks would call it at the table. Until there is an official errata feel free call it as you see fit. And I could see the case of official play following what is in the book over a non WotC Web page even if it is the designers.

Personally I can't say I agree with all of their calls. Some I do, some I don't.

On another note. I was thinking about poking around the 4e warlock weapon using powers to see if there was anything good enough to male a couple of custom invocations. Does anyone have any favorites they would like to suggest?

 

[Fion]

At my table, powers require 'class levels' when they say 'class level'. If they say 'level', they are available to anyone who meets that requirement. And yes you might guess this means I have a Fighter/Warlock who can kick some serious booty.

 

[Celtavian]

However those "clarifications" are just their thoughts and/or how they would call it in a game. Many players don't care about or don't use how those two folks would call it at the table. Until there is an official errata feel free call it as you see fit. And I could see the case of official play following what is in the book over a non WotC Web page even if it is the designers.

Personally I can't say I agree with all of their calls. Some I do, some I don't.

On another note. I was thinking about poking around the 4e warlock weapon using powers to see if there was anything good enough to male a couple of custom invocations. Does anyone have any favorites they would like to suggest?

I may let it play as written. I'm doubtful it would be a combination that overshadows every other combination. Looks like it would be another viable, interesting build.