D&D 5E Sage Advice August 17th

[FormerlyHemlock]

They run out in 24 hours - might be useful, might be useless, depends on when you need them. You're definitely burning 8 hours right away that way of that 24 hours. And Aura of Vitality can be more useful in combat that goodberry, as 2d6+4/rd is actually pretty decent healing

2d6+5.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So it's time to ban goodberry?

no... I think I will just not bring it up and hope no one thinks it through... if my group did it I would have to decide do I a) adjust all threats, b)ban the spell, c)adjust the spell...

I am now remembering that there was a Sword and Sorcery spell that rangers could cast enchanting arrows to deal 1d6 electric damage per 3 caster levels, instead of the normal 1dx of the arrow, and permeant (until discharged) spell. We had a ranger who took 6 months of down time casting it everyday and stockpiled hundreds of 3d6 electric arrows (he had a magic quiver)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I don't know how you play but it would be A HUGE change to my group... as is we argue over short rests now...

lets go worst cas scenero then I will roll back to a more normal one, a cleric druid with 10 spells per day that can summon 500 berries tonight and tomorrow hit the dungeon with full spells.

I think you're miscounting. Ten Goodberries is 100 berries, not 500.

I can't help imagining the party frantically struggling to protect their Goodberries from ghouls, ghosts and leprechauns. "You're always after me Lucky Charms!"

HP attrition is not a serious threat in 5E anyway, thanks to Aura of Vitality. I dislike the Goodberry ruling, but not for balance reasons, rather because it's wrong.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think you're miscounting. Ten Goodberries is 100 berries, not 500.

yup... It does lower the craziness when you don't make bonehead math errors, but again even just 100 berries (400hp) is a lot... heck

a 5th level character Cleric 3/druid 2 could pump out 4 casting of the spell, get 40 berries worth 160hp... to a 5th level fighter and a 5th level rogue getting 15 berries each (leaving 5 for the cleric/druid and 5 for the wizard) that is still 60hp each in reserve (20 for the casters) I had a rogue/bard who at level 5 only had 24hp... that would be almost 4x the longevity... even the best 5th level character I have seen real time had 71hp... and that was a dwarf barbarian with a 20con.

 

[Tony Vargas]

HP attrition is not a serious threat in 5E anyway, thanks to Aura of Vitality. I dislike the Goodberry ruling, but not for balance reasons, rather because it's wrong.

Attrition, in general, seems like it was meant to be important in 5e, thus the whole 6-8 encounter thing, HD, neo-Vancian casting, short & long rests, and whatnot. Deciding that one (or now two?) spell(s) mean it's not important might be more indicative of an issue with the spell(s) in question (or the analysis thereof), then a major shift of design intent.

Of course, ruling a certain spell works a certain way so as to impact the resource economy of the game is a perfectly legitimate thing for a DM to do, whether that's to change the relevance of attrition, or change it back...

 

[Mistwell]

2d6+5.

Oh right, I miscalculated. It generates even MORE HP

 

[Mistwell]

yup... It does lower the craziness when you don't make bonehead math errors, but again even just 100 berries (400hp) is a lot... heck

a 5th level character Cleric 3/druid 2 could pump out 4 casting of the spell, get 40 berries worth 160hp... to a 5th level fighter and a 5th level rogue getting 15 berries each (leaving 5 for the cleric/druid and 5 for the wizard) that is still 60hp each in reserve (20 for the casters) I had a rogue/bard who at level 5 only had 24hp... that would be almost 4x the longevity... even the best 5th level character I have seen real time had 71hp... and that was a dwarf barbarian with a 20con.

A Lore Bard 6/ Life Cleric 1 (a much more overall desirable multiclass pairing as Life Cleric 1 gives medium armor, heavy armor, and shield proficiency, along with the highly powerful Guidance cantrip and the highly powerful Bless first level spell), casting Aura of Vitality heals 2d6+5 for 10 rounds, for an average of 120 hp each casting. I believe they can do this four times a day (three 3rd level spots, one 4th level spot), for 480 hp healed, and they still have most of their spells left (three 2nd, four 1st left). And you don't need any sage advice for this, it's right out of the book without interpretation. For a per-level comparison, a first level slot is worth 2 spell points and a third level slot is worth 5 spell points (DMG page 287). So that's 40/2 for the first level spell or 20 hp/spell point; 120/5 for the 3rd level spell or 24 hp/spell point. So the out-of-the-book spell heals more per spell point right now, without any sage advice. And yet...nobody ever complained about it.

Sure we could argue which is more flexible, that you can save berries and can't save the aura, that you can consume a berry in a fight and you'd have to cast Aura to get use in a fight (though casting the spell in a fight is much better and more plausible than casting goodberry in a fight), that first level spells go less used at higher levels than third level spells, and those are all fair arguments. But the bottom line is that quantity of healing (more even) was already in the game, at roughly the same spell slot cost.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A Lore Bard 6/ Life Cleric 1 casting Aura of Vitality heals 2d6+5 for 10 rounds, for an average of 120 hp each casting. I believe they can do this four times a day (three 3rd level spots, 1 4th level spot), for 480 hp healed, and they still have most of their spells left. And you don't need any sage advice for this, it's right out of the book without interpretation. For a per-level comparison, a third level slot is worth 5 spell points, and a first level slot is worth 2 spell points (DMG page 287). So that's 40/2 for the first level spell or 20 hp/spell point. And it's 120/5 for the 3rd level spell or 24 hp/spell point. So the out-of-the-book spell heals more per spell point right now, without any sage advice. And yet...nobody ever complained about it.

but my bard 5/cleric 1 has to cast that spell as an action in combat and give up that slot or points that day...

the druid cleric cast the spells yesterday, and can now use the same healing but ALSO spend there slots on non healing...

this isn't "Hey character A got 20hp/spell point and character B got 24hp/spell point but both have 30 spell points"
no it's "Hey both character A and B have 30 spell points, but character A also has these berries woth X, but character B can spend his points as 24hp/spell point."

infact since my example was 5th level Cleric/Druid and yours was 6th Bard/cleric could my example take bard levels and do the same thing you are AND also have a huge supply of berries... I mean if the bard took the 'extra spell thing' and took good berry do they not even need druid levels to pull the same issue and ALSO have yours...


edit: My Tuesday night crew has a Bard/Assassin as our primary healer, and he has never used this aura spell... personal note don't tell him about it...

 

[Mistwell]

but my bard 5/cleric 1 has to cast that spell as an action in combat and give up that slot or points that day...

No they don't. They do it out of combat, of course, when they can. But they CAN do it in combat if they want to.

the druid cleric cast the spells yesterday, and can now use the same healing but ALSO spend there slots on non healing...

You expect people to use an action to gain 4 hit points, in combat? Pull the other one! Come on now, between the two goodberry will NEVER be used in combat, while at least Aura of Vitality has a lot of utility in and out of combat.

this isn't "Hey character A got 20hp/spell point and character B got 24hp/spell point but both have 30 spell points"
no it's "Hey both character A and B have 30 spell points, but character A also has these berries woth X, but character B can spend his points as 24hp/spell point."

I am not following why that's a good point. They're both casting spells that heal, one does it at 20hp/sp, the other at 24hp/sp. Yes there are flexibility issues involved as I mentioned, but that's not my point. My point is, this quantity of healing was already in the game and nobody said a word.

infact since my example was 5th level Cleric/Druid and yours was 6th Bard/cleric could my example take bard levels and do the same thing you are AND also have a huge supply of berries... I mean if the bard took the 'extra spell thing' and took good berry do they not even need druid levels to pull the same issue and ALSO have yours...

They could choose both spells sure, but that seems like a real waste. They do essentially the same thing - why would you blow both your special abilities on duplication like that. But sure, you can do that. Again, you seem to be missing my point - Aura of Vitality was already in the game this way before this Sage Advice, and nobody had a complaint. Why all of a sudden the sky is falling stuff with this ruling, when that same quantity of healing was already in the game for the same quantity of spell points being used for it? The other differences between the two spells come down to personal preferences and some minor subjective issues - but the main point is that quantity of healing was right there already.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I just went back and read the life thing for clerics... it heals 2+level of the spell more. So yes casting good berry with a 1st level slot is 4... but you can put it in higher slots.

My 5th level druid/cleric is worse... so is the one with bard levels...

lets take a bard 6 (so has the magic secrets) cleric of life 1... he is 7th level on the multi class chart. and can know both good berry and aura of vitality...

4 first level 3 second level 3 third level 1 fourth level

so the group hangs out in town one day before heading off to the dungeon of a millon orcs and trap(at least that is how the players call it no matter how much fluff I give)... the bard cast all of his spells as the berries

40 berries heal 4hp each, 30 berries heal 5hp each, 30 berries heal 6hp each, and 10 berries heal 7hp each...
560 hp in a bushel of berries... but wait, that's not all.

now they go into the dungeon and after every fight use the berries to pop up to full, but if a fight is bad and needs extra mid fight the bard has ALL of his slots still, and can cast the 2d6+5 spell, or boost it a level for 2d6+6...