D&D 5E Sage Advice August 17th

[GMforPowergamers]

No they don't. They do it out of combat, of course, when they can. But they CAN do it in combat if they want to.

they at least used the slot if not the action

You expect people to use an action to gain 4 hit points, in combat? Pull the other one! Come on now, between the two goodberry will NEVER be used in combat, while at least Aura of Vitality has a lot of utility in and out of combat.

very very rarely if ever would I expect that... my issue is gaining resource free reupping to full between encounters with less then a minute of down time.

I am not following why that's a good point. They're both casting spells that heal, one does it at 20hp/sp, the other at 24hp/sp. Yes there are flexibility issues involved as I mentioned, but that's not my point. My point is, this quantity of healing was already in the game and nobody said a word.

both have X# of slots or points, but one has to use the resource in the adventure, the other could the night before.

They could choose both spells sure, but that seems like a real waste. They do essentially the same thing - why would you blow both your special abilities on duplication like that.

because it vastly increases the longevity of your workday...

Again, you seem to be missing my point - Aura of Vitality was already in the game this way before this Sage Advice,

yes, and as the person being shocked by BOTH of these, I have to assume you relize I don't know every spell forward and back... up until now I was assuming it was a bard spell, but now I know it is a paliden one.

and nobody had a complaint.

I also didn't complain about COdzilla for almost 3 years of 3e... but once I saw it I did.

I never once complained about the prey for more reroll crit thing in 4e either, because the first time I realized how it worked, it was being fixed...

Why all of a sudden the sky is falling stuff with this ruling, when that same quantity of healing was already in the game for the same quantity of spell points being used for it?

well first it isn't really the same. Because goodberry has a 24hr duration it lasts long enough that I can cast it every night with every resource I have left, and have the benfit of it AND the benfit of the full spell slots the next day. If the duration were 1hr per caster level it would not become an issue until 12+ level.

The other differences between the two spells come down to personal preferences and some minor subjective issues - but the main point is that quantity of healing was right there already.

except one cost a 3rd+ level slot mid adventure, the other costs something the night before...

 

[Mistwell]

I just went back and read the life thing for clerics... it heals 2+level of the spell more. So yes casting good berry with a 1st level slot is 4... but you can put it in higher slots.

In theory. I think you'd want another Sage Advice on that. But still...we're dancing around the point. Another spell in the game already healed substantially similar sums of hit points for substantially the same expenditure of spell power, and it caused no issues I am aware of. We can quibble about ancillary issues of utility and scenarios to squeeze even more healing out of these spells, but in reality they both simply heal up the part between encounters most of the time. And the question is - does that really break the game. I think the answer is no, the game continues to function fine, and Bards everywhere pat themselves on the back for being excellent healers in this edition

lets take a bard 6 (so has the magic secrets) cleric of life 1... he is 7th level on the multi class chart. and can know both good berry and aura of vitality...

You could but it's pretty redundant. But sure, if you want to be able to be double sure you have the maximum healing flexibility, OK. You're aura'ing, you're handing out berries, you have cure wounds and healing word and a expertise in medicine, you're the army doctor!

4 first level 3 second level 3 third level 1 fourth level

so the group hangs out in town one day before heading off to the dungeon of a millon orcs and trap(at least that is how the players call it no matter how much fluff I give)... the bard cast all of his spells as the berries

40 berries heal 4hp each, 30 berries heal 5hp each, 30 berries heal 6hp each, and 10 berries heal 7hp each...
560 hp in a bushel of berries... but wait, that's not all.

now they go into the dungeon and after every fight use the berries to pop up to full, but if a fight is bad and needs extra mid fight the bard has ALL of his slots still, and can cast the 2d6+5 spell, or boost it a level for 2d6+6...

More likely, this is the dude keeping a flank of the army alive. Everyone will know if you can get your wounded guy over to Bill the Bard, he'll be back on his feat in no time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In theory. I think you'd want another Sage Advice on that. But still...we're dancing around the point. Another spell in the game already healed substantially similar sums of hit points for substantially the same expenditure of spell power, and it caused no issues I am aware of.

It is not the same resource cost though... I spend sunday partying and then before bed cast spells that would just go to waste anyway on healing for the next day... or I spend 1 of my very few level 3+ spell slots mid adventure... how are you not seeing the coast difference...


lets say there are 3 tables, and each are running the same mega dungeon adventure for 6th level charaters. there are hundreds of rooms maped out and no one expect anyone to get through even half of them.

all three tables have a fighter, a wizard, and a rogue.

table 1 has a cleric 3/druid 3
table 2 has a cleric 1/bard 6
table 3 has a cleric of life 6

they all have 4 first level 3 second level 3 third level 1 fourth level for spells, BUT the 1st table also has 560 hp in a bushel of berries

now you can argue that the table 2 can use there 3rd level spell to heal 2d6+5 for x minutes, but it is still using a third level spell that table 1 can use either to also heal, or for anything else, and since that is really just between 1 or two fights at most, the 560hp berries are useable at anytime with a moments rest...

now I bet if all else were close to even (luck and player skill) then table 2 will get farther then table 3... but table 1 will blow both away. They will outlast any other combo...


The difference is resources, and spell slots are a limited resource that if not used one day don't help the next 9 out of 10 times... but goodberry alone (yes just the 1hp) breaks that, if you can power load 2+spell level on to that it gets way too huge way too fast. If your good berries died when you regained the slots it would be about on par with a 3rd level paladin spell,

 

[Mistwell]

It is not the same resource cost though... I spend sunday partying and then before bed cast spells that would just go to waste anyway on healing for the next day... or I spend 1 of my very few level 3+ spell slots mid adventure... how are you not seeing the coast difference...

Because it's not "one of your very few", and spell points figures cost difference (it's not based on how you feel about it, it's based on the hard math of it which isn't subjective). And your "cast before bed" is silly beyond the first day anyway, and none of that is the complaint about the ruling to begin with (you can do that with goodberry with or without this ruling, it's just a matter of how much it heals). The complaint is that it heals so much you heal the party between battles. Both spells do this, but one is getting a lot of whining about a sage advice and the other was sitting there all along with no complaints.

I am going to keep bottom lining for it no matter how many tangents you want to chase. The issue with the ruling that people have is not about goodberry lasting a long time (that's your distraction - it's part of that spell with or without this ruling, and it's situational). It's not that it's first level (spell points calculate that anyway). It's that this ruling heals a lot - but it heals roughly the same (a bit less) than another spell could have done all along for the same resource expenditure. And that's it - that's my point. I don't much care about the tangents you want to chase, the minor differentiations you want to make which have little to nothing to do with that point. I get it, all things being equal you would choose goodberry for it's utility. Fine - and not meaningful for the point I am making.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Because it's not "one of your very few",

yes it is, at 5th level you have 1 3rd level spell at 7th you have 2+ afourth... so at most 3 that is one of your few...

and spell points figures cost difference (it's not based on how you feel about it, it's based on the hard math of it which isn't subjective).

I don't even understand this part... who brought up feelings, I have been doing math since my first post... the one that ended with "Wow I never noticed how abusive good berry is and this make it worse"

And your "cast before bed" is silly beyond the first day anyway,

why? do you start 1 day then never for the rest of the campaign have a day off? do you never go to bed with an unused spell slot in the dungeon? it is worst on a day with 0 resource expenditure but even just 1 3rd level spell left is 10 berries each doing 6hp...that's 60hp invested for tomoroow.

and none of that is the complaint about the ruling to begin with (you can do that with goodberry with or without this ruling, it's just a matter of how much it heals).

witch is exactly the complaint I am making... that 1hp goodberry might be too good for a first level spell, but adding 2+spell level to it makes it worse... are you not reading my complaint? Because you just said the complaint I have isn't my complaint?

The complaint is that it heals so much you heal the party between battles.

AND THAT IT DOES SO WITH NO COST if you had any spells left the day before...

Both spells do this,

yes, one cost a 3rd level spell slot, the other you used resources that you were not using yesterday and were perishable...

but one is getting a lot of whining about a sage advice and the other was sitting there all along with no complaints.

please tell me witch is witch again...

I am going to keep bottom lining for it no matter how many tangents you want to chase.

my first post is not a tangent... it was me realizing a problem that I had not seen before today...

The issue with the ruling that people have is not about goodberry lasting a long time (that's your distraction - it's part of that spell with or without this ruling, and it's situational).

WHy do you keep dismissing my actual issue... I don't care if you mid dungeon generate 10 1 hp berries that last an hour... but doing so the night befor is a small issue (one that I could overlook) but adding 2+spell level to it takes a small problem and turns it into a BIG problem...

It's not that it's first level (spell points calculate that anyway). It's that this ruling heals a lot - but it heals roughly the same (a bit less) than another spell could have done all along for the same resource expenditure.

that is not the same it is apples and oranges... one spell cost a slot or points mid adventure, the other you can invest in the night before giving you access to a resources out of league of the other for little to no cost...

And that's it - that's my point. I don't much care about the tangents you want to chase, the minor differentiations you want to make which have little to nothing to do with that point. I get it, all things being equal you would choose goodberry for it's utility. Fine - and not meaningful for the point I am making.

then your point has nothing to do with my problem...

my first post was about the single monster high level thing and not the berries to begin with..

I had a 9th level party fight a modified marralith (I gave her 6 short swords so it did 2d6 damage instead of 2d8, and I took away her parry ability) so that would be a bit lower of the CR, and they beat her no problem... the next encounter (back to full it was days later) a small group of 2 CR 5 drow and 3 or 4 CR 1/2 drow almost TPKed the same party...

then today I was going and responded to you saying that the 24hour duration didn't matter... at the time I started typing I was mostly on your side

the idea with goodberry is simple, lets say you have 5 spell slots tonight before bed (we will call 8pm bedtime) you loose nothing casting it 5 times and getting 5-50 berries each healing 4hp that last until 8pm the next night. That means that you have 20-200hp of healing the next day, and it only get worse if you don't use them because nothing happens. because then the question becomes "What is your full allotment of spells?"

in my game I could imagin a cleric/druid (or a bard/cleric taking the spell) with 10+ spell slots per day, and the night before a big dungeon making 500 berries, for 2,000hp of healing...

wow I can't belive I didn't realize how bad this was to start with...

a 10th level druid has 15 spell slots each makes upto 10 berries... even if the DM ruled roll 1d10 (I don't think that is the way it should work but lets go with it for the example) you would average 73-75 berries. when it's 1hp each that's a big boost... when it's 4hp each... omg that's around 300hp... ONTOP of spells...

you can even see the moment the whole thing spun out of...

wow I can't belive I didn't realize how bad this was to start with...

I even then went on in other posts to say that at the time I underplayed it because I really thought you were right and I was wrong so I went back to look at the life power... it said 2+spell level, so a first level spell is +3, but a 2nd level is +4

my issue is two fold so please try not to miss read it.

1) Goodberry on it's own with just a druid is a hp resouces that can break the healing caps with no cost because you burn your slots left the night before (this is a small issue that could be worked with though)

2) adding the life power adds and adds and adds to the ridicules level how well this non resources depleting spell is abusive...


find me any other example where it is OK to stay the night in town, build a supply of healing that costs noghting but left over slots and can be used the next day in the dungeon... when you do remember I am 99% sure it will stack with this

 

[Mistwell]

WHy do you keep dismissing my actual issue...

Because I don't care about your issue. At all. It would never come up in my games, ever. You responded to me about the issue I raised, and it's what I have been talking about. Literally only you, on this entire message board and the WOTC message board, is talking about this "cast before you go to bed" nonsense. Nobody cares. I am going to continue to focus on the issue I raised, which addressed everyone else's issue about this spell. You feel free to talk about your issue and see if you can ever get anyone to care about it. But it remains non-responsive to what I said about the game already having an existing spell that heals about that much and nobody had a game break from it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Because I don't care about your issue.

for someone who doesn't care you seem to be talking about it a lot...

It would never come up in my games, ever.

OK, so what if it doesn't bother you then what would be the harm in looking at it from a different point of view?

You responded to me about the issue I raised,

why yes I did... I'll show my work in a moment.

and it's what I have been talking about. Literally only you, on this entire message board and the WOTC message board, is talking about this "cast before you go to bed" nonsense.

except it wasn't even my idea... so now you have gotten to the rude point were you not only are dismissing my thoughts BUT you are LIEING about it because it wasn't my idea... I just read it and understood it before you...
Here is the chain I responded to...

Achievable at level 7 or level 10 depending on whether you go bard or paladin compared to level 2, and does use a resource. Apart from the fact that a level 3 spell is quite potent almost regardless of your level while a level 1 spell tends not to be, there's also the fact that unless you ambush your PCs every night, goodberry only costs you slots that you didn't need to use yesterday, not actual slots today.

Uh, everyone already heals overnight without any spell. This is purely for between encounters. It happens at a point where you have no idea what the rest of the day will bring. I am not saying a person might not choose Goodberry over Aura of Vitality - I am saying we already know the game doesn't break with such a spell as it's already in the game.

You don't heal at night with the goodberries. You keep them for the next day. One of these scenarios is improving the effect of a spell by ~60%. The other one is improving a spell by 400%.

They run out in 24 hours - might be useful, might be useless, depends on when you need them. You're definitely burning 8 hours right away that way of that 24 hours. And Aura of Vitality can be more useful in combat that goodberry, as 2d6+4/rd is actually pretty decent healing as opposed to 4 hp from a goodberry (though a thief with the fast hands ability might like to pop one each round).

the idea with goodberry is simple, lets say you have 5 spell slots tonight before bed (we will call 8pm bedtime) you loose nothing casting it 5 times and getting 5-50 berries each healing 4hp that last until 8pm the next night. That means that you have 20-200hp of healing the next day, and it only get worse if you don't use them because nothing happens. because then the question becomes "What is your full allotment of spells?"

in my game I could imagin a cleric/druid (or a bard/cleric taking the spell) with 10+ spell slots per day, and the night before a big dungeon making 500 berries, for 2,000hp of healing...

wow I can't belive I didn't realize how bad this was to start with...

a 10th level druid has 15 spell slots each makes upto 10 berries... even if the DM ruled roll 1d10 (I don't think that is the way it should work but lets go with it for the example) you would average 73-75 berries. when it's 1hp each that's a big boost... when it's 4hp each... omg that's around 300hp... ONTOP of spells...

Nobody cares.

citation needed... someone cared enough that you started this with someone else and that is where I came in...

I am going to continue to focus on the issue I raised, which addressed everyone else's issue about this spell.

perfect, so you go on and say X isn't a problem for me because my players don't do Y... it is the worst possible way to talk to someone because it is dismissive and arrogant, but you go right on.

You feel free to talk about your issue and see if you can ever get anyone to care about it.

I have been talking to you about it all day here...

But it remains non-responsive to what I said about the game already having an existing spell that heals about that much and nobody had a game break from it.

except where you can combine this with that to break the game...

 

[Celtavian]

I don't know how you play but it would be A HUGE change to my group... as is we argue over short rests now...

lets go worst cas scenero then I will roll back to a more normal one, a cleric druid with 10 spells per day that can summon 500 berries tonight and tomorrow hit the dungeon with full spells.

My group fo 5 advetures each take 100 berries and put them away for use later... after the first fight 3 of them are hurt bad enough to be at or close to half hp and 1 is a few points down the last is untouched... normally the cleric/druid would drop a spell of a channel on a few of them, but not today, they each pop 3-8 berries (so 12-32hp back) now even if we say 'it's an action to eat a berry' that's 8x 6 seconds... so we will call that 1 minute. They all go into encounter 2 with full hp and the cleric used no resources to heal them..

now encounter 2 they get hit hard (bad rolls plus a mistake in tactics, it happens) the fighter drops and the cleric has to heal him mid combat (No berry here they use a real resource) after the fight though, there is no need to rest for an hour or regroup, or wst more resources, the fighter can pop 10 berries and get back 40hp...if that's not enough pop 5 more and be at the healing spell+60...well he is doing that anyone else can popl 5 or 6 berries and be back to full...

It turns the entire hp economy on it's head, and frees up a bunch of spells the cleric/druid can use on other things...


ok lets head back to a more sane scenero, a 7th level druid makes 40 1hp berries... even just that extra 40hps is the difference in droping 3 or 4 healing spells, at no cost...


now you say "What's the difference between these and healing potions?" and I say, nothing, unless you combine them. Use potions and berries between encounters and potions and spells in... you have just massively increased the longevity of your party, AND given the healer the ability to save spell slots for buffs/debiffs/damage/control spells... yea, it is a big difference.


edit: you know the time thing really bugs me here... you say it would take a lot... well lets take a 200 berries (that's 800hp) and give it to a 9th level fighter... he has 8d10+10+10xcon mod hp... lets give him a 14 con, 30+8d10 so average 77hp... he could get brought down to 0 get a spare the dying cantrip up to 1hp, then get him back up to full with 19 berries, witch could be pop a handful, or take 19 actions... say 20 rounds so 2 minutes. he can do this 10 times in a day... before taking a short rest, the 11th time he could use his second wind and take the 10 left for 40 more hp...

It does nothing in my game but save a bunch of money on healing potions. The entire situation wouldn't come up unless I planned an encounter for it to come up like them needing that much out of combat healing to stay functioning. The players I run crush most everything they fight. I'm still figuring out how to challenge them properly as a group. 5E is set up at the moment for smart players to crush monsters with relative ease. I have far more difficult concerns than goodberry being abused for out of combat healing by a multiclass cleric/druid. If this is going to hurt your game, I suggest you modify accordingly.

 

[Celtavian]

I think you're miscounting. Ten Goodberries is 100 berries, not 500.

I can't help imagining the party frantically struggling to protect their Goodberries from ghouls, ghosts and leprechauns. "You're always after me Lucky Charms!"

HP attrition is not a serious threat in 5E anyway, thanks to Aura of Vitality. I dislike the Goodberry ruling, but not for balance reasons, rather because it's wrong.

"Protect the berries. They're after our berries. Stop them."

"What about the gold?"

"Screw the gold. We can survive without that. Don't let them take the berries."

Or we could have druids hired by armies to make goodberries. Or start a business selling goodberries to adventurers. It's good to be a life cleric/druid.

 

[Celtavian]

A Lore Bard 6/ Life Cleric 1 (a much more overall desirable multiclass pairing as Life Cleric 1 gives medium armor, heavy armor, and shield proficiency, along with the highly powerful Guidance cantrip and the highly powerful Bless first level spell), casting Aura of Vitality heals 2d6+5 for 10 rounds, for an average of 120 hp each casting. I believe they can do this four times a day (three 3rd level spots, one 4th level spot), for 480 hp healed, and they still have most of their spells left (three 2nd, four 1st left). And you don't need any sage advice for this, it's right out of the book without interpretation. For a per-level comparison, a first level slot is worth 2 spell points and a third level slot is worth 5 spell points (DMG page 287). So that's 40/2 for the first level spell or 20 hp/spell point; 120/5 for the 3rd level spell or 24 hp/spell point. So the out-of-the-book spell heals more per spell point right now, without any sage advice. And yet...nobody ever complained about it.

Sure we could argue which is more flexible, that you can save berries and can't save the aura, that you can consume a berry in a fight and you'd have to cast Aura to get use in a fight (though casting the spell in a fight is much better and more plausible than casting goodberry in a fight), that first level spells go less used at higher levels than third level spells, and those are all fair arguments. But the bottom line is that quantity of healing (more even) was already in the game, at roughly the same spell slot cost.

We use the aura of vitality with beacon of hope for in and out of combat healing dependent on the circumstances. Extremely powerful combination.