Redemption, the Force, and Morality [No Ep 7 Spoilers]

[Neonchameleon]

This was going to be a reply to [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] in the Ep 7 thread.

The problem with objecting to Anakin Skywalker as a force ghost who's been redeemed is that it makes the underlying assumption that the Jedi are good guys. They might not use the Dark Side of the Force - but there's a long way between that and being good guys.

What do we know about the Jedi? Going just by the films.

Within the Jedi sphere of influence slavery is accepted. Qui-Gon Jinn isn't remotely disgusted by the slavery on Tattoine. The droids are almost all slaves, many of them sapient. The Jedi use an entire slave army in AotC FFS. "Guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy" for 1000 years haven't even taken a firm line that slavery is unjust. At best they are Lawful Neutral.

They take kids away from their parents normally at four years old. They then indoctrinate them to become soldiers from this age and start teaching them to use military weapons certainly by the time they are six.

Even "good" Jedi like Obi-Wan are not shown to have problems with mind controlling people. (Or with lying; the Sith are generally more honest than the Jedi.)

They teach emotional repression.

The Jedi are therefore Lawful Evil with good PR because the Empire is worse - but in most settings the above the law space wizards who train children the way they do would be the bad guys. Vader's redemption such as it was didn't take him further morally than Lawful Evil.

(This doesn't mean that all Jedi are LE. Merely that the order as a whole is - Luke is probably Neutral Good).

 

[delericho]

The problem with objecting to Anakin Skywalker as a force ghost who's been redeemed is that it makes the underlying assumption that the Jedi are good guys.

The big problem with Anakin as a Force Ghost has nothing to do with redemption - it was a special technique discovered by Qui-Gon and taught to Yoda and then to Obi-wan. Anakin never had opportunity to learn it.

Just another way the prequels ruined everything.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah. They're two different issues.

I said in the other thread that I didn't feel Anakin was redeemed. Throwing an old man down a well doesn't make up for any of the evil stuff he did. There's no action you can take which redeems you after you kill a room full of children. Plus whatever else he did in his 30 years of being Vader. You don't get to say "Sorry! My bad!" and it's all OK.

The force ghost thing, on the other hand, is a secret Qui Gonn learned and taught to Yoda, who taught it to Obi Wan. Nobody taught it to Anakin.

Even assuming he taught it to himself after seeing Obi Wan do it on the Death Star, he should be an old man, not Hayden Christenson. Or Obi Wan should be Ewan McGregor. I guess they get to choose their force ghost appearance, and Obi Wan likes the way he looks old better!

 

[Ryujin]

This was going to be a reply to [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] in the Ep 7 thread.

The problem with objecting to Anakin Skywalker as a force ghost who's been redeemed is that it makes the underlying assumption that the Jedi are good guys. They might not use the Dark Side of the Force - but there's a long way between that and being good guys.

What do we know about the Jedi? Going just by the films.

Within the Jedi sphere of influence slavery is accepted. Qui-Gon Jinn isn't remotely disgusted by the slavery on Tattoine. The droids are almost all slaves, many of them sapient. The Jedi use an entire slave army in AotC FFS. "Guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy" for 1000 years haven't even taken a firm line that slavery is unjust. At best they are Lawful Neutral.

They take kids away from their parents normally at four years old. They then indoctrinate them to become soldiers from this age and start teaching them to use military weapons certainly by the time they are six.

Even "good" Jedi like Obi-Wan are not shown to have problems with mind controlling people. (Or with lying; the Sith are generally more honest than the Jedi.)

They teach emotional repression.

The Jedi are therefore Lawful Evil with good PR because the Empire is worse - but in most settings the above the law space wizards who train children the way they do would be the bad guys. Vader's redemption such as it was didn't take him further morally than Lawful Evil.

(This doesn't mean that all Jedi are LE. Merely that the order as a whole is - Luke is probably Neutral Good).

I would say that you had it right the first time 'round; they're Lawful Neutral. They enforce the law, for good or ill, because it's law.

I prefer to think of Episodes I to III in the same way as "Dallas" season 9; it's all a very bad dream, had by Leia.

 

[Umbran]

Within the Jedi sphere of influence slavery is accepted.

Yes, but you should be blaming the Galactic Senate for that, not the Jedi.

Because, think for a moment - what are the Jedi going to do about it? They don't have legislative power. So, you want them to use their powers (mind control and violence) to eradicate the practice because the Jedi say so? How would putting themselves above the law in this manner make them any better? They answer to the Senate for good reason!

They take kids away from their parents normally at four years old.

If you had a kid who was going to develop superpowers and anger management issues, you'd want them trained early, too. See below.

They teach emotional repression.

I think you are oversimplifying.

The Jedi teach emotional repression and detachment *for good reason*. Certain of what we'll call "negative emotions" (fear, anger, hatred) are like PCP to a Force user: 1) they give great strength, and access to abilities you don't otherwise get, but... you're acting in fear and anger. And 2) such use is, for lack of a better term, addictive. This isn't just Jedi propaganda - we see it happen in the movies.

Thus, if you don't teach a Force-capable person about emotional control, the end result is going to be much like not teaching kids what happens when they use drugs (drugs that give them angry superpowers) but making sure they get easy access to said drugs. Bad scene. Imagine you were in the Marvel Universe, and every superpowered person would, if they didn't keep themselves in check, Hulk out and rage all over the place. That's kind of what we are looking at, just with Force-lightning and -choking instead of buildings falling over.

The Light side really isn't Good. It is more like it is lacking negative emotional influence. You can still do bad things when not steeped in anger and fear - but being steeped in anger and fear pretty much assures you do bad things to others.

 

[Morrus]

I don't think there's an implication that Jedi kidnap kids and train them, is there? Presumably all this is done with parental consent. The problem seems to lie more with bad parenting. Anakin certainly went with Qui Gonn willingly, and with his mother's blessing.

 

[Umbran]

I said in the other thread that I didn't feel Anakin was redeemed. Throwing an old man down a well doesn't make up for any of the evil stuff he did.

There's no action you can take which redeems you after you kill a room full of children. Plus whatever else he did in his 30 years of being Vader. You don't get to say "Sorry! My bad!" and it's all OK.

The force ghost thing, on the other hand, is a secret Qui Gonn learned and taught to Yoda, who taught it to Obi Wan. Nobody taught it to Anakin.

The EU lore (including RPGs) as I understand it has that ability only open to those who have not fallen to the Dark Side. But, as noted, the Dark/Light divide isn't so much about Evil and Good, as they are about "steeped in anger, fear, and pain" and "not steeped in those things".

So, Anakin beign able to become a force ghost isn't saying he's been morally redeemed. It is saying he's tossed aside his self-pity, anger, pain, and desire to do things for his own power and benefit.

 

[Morrus]

The EU lore (including RPGs) as I understand it has that ability only open to those who have not fallen to the Dark Side. But, as noted, the Dark/Light divide isn't so much about Evil and Good, as they are about "steeped in anger, fear, and pain" and "not steeped in those things".

So, Anakin beign able to become a force ghost isn't saying he's been morally redeemed. It is saying he's tossed aside his self-pity and anger.

Yes. As I said, they're two different issues. The redemption (or lack of it) and the force ghost aren't connected.

 

[Ryujin]

If you had a kid who was going to develop superpowers and anger management issues, you'd want them trained early, too.

The movie "Chronicle" did a pretty good job of demonstrating that scenario.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, but you should be blaming the Galactic Senate for that, not the Jedi.

Because, think for a moment - what are the Jedi going to do about it?

Lobby. For literally a thousand years. Trade favours. Make speeches. Run campaigns. Set examples. Make sure that Jedi territory is a place where any slave that sets foot becomes free.

The Jedi are as portrayed bound up in the power-politics of the Republic. And that gives them weight -especially when taking moral decisions that technically go against their best interests.

If you had a kid who was going to develop superpowers and anger management issues, you'd want them trained early, too. See below.

Which doesn't mean I'd want them taught the way Anakin was. I'd also want to keep my kid. Now it's entirely possible that the Jedi have "lay bretheren" who are trained, force sensitive, and not monks and live with their families to build on existing positive emotional connections. And it's possible that there are Jedi tutors who look after these people and the young Jedi at the monastry are all either Orphans or on the equivalent of Summer Camp. But I've never seen this implied anywhere (and the implication that it doesn't happen is fairly strong).

Thus, if you don't teach a Force-capable person about emotional control

Which the Jedi appear to be terrible at. "Fear is the path to the dark side" is not a way of controlling your fears - it's a way of intensifying them. "You should be afraid of your own fear." The methods shown by the Jedi in the films don't work.

But then if we're going by EU canon the Jedi Code almost reversed itself. The initial and less toxic version was:
<DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="90">Emotion, yet peace. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="92">Ignorance, yet knowledge. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="94">Passion, yet serenity. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="96">Chaos, yet harmony. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="98">Death, yet the Force.</DD>

​

Whereas the final version and the one that matches Anakin's training and Yoda's lack of wisdom is the one that's utterly ignoring of ambiguity:
<DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="103">There is no emotion, there is peace. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="105">There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="107">There is no passion, there is serenity. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="109">There is no chaos, there is harmony. </DD><DD style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px" data-cke-expando="111">There is no death, there is the Force.</DD>