Redemption, the Force, and Morality [No Ep 7 Spoilers]

[Umbran]

The movie "Chronicle" did a pretty good job of demonstrating that scenario.

That was an awesome film! And yes, it shows the point pretty well.

 

[Ryujin]

That was an awesome film! And yes, it shows the point pretty well.

I generally despise the "found footage" genre, but really enjoyed that one.

 

[delericho]

Yes, but you should be blaming the Galactic Senate for that, not the Jedi.

As noted in TPM, the Senate actually had already outlawed slavery. Problem is that their power didn't extend as far as Tattooine, but I'm not entirely sure they can be blamed for that.

 

[Umbran]

As noted in TPM, the Senate actually had already outlawed slavery.

I only watched it the once, so that detail I didn't recall.

Problem is that their power didn't extend as far as Tattooine, but I'm not entirely sure they can be blamed for that.

Fair point - so, are the Jedi (and there's only two of them on planet at the time, right?) supposed to start the equivalent of an international incident over it? I suspect when outside their area of technical jurisdiction, they're supposed to keep it down to a dull roar...

 

[MarkB]

Yeah. They're two different issues.

I said in the other thread that I didn't feel Anakin was redeemed. Throwing an old man down a well doesn't make up for any of the evil stuff he did. There's no action you can take which redeems you after you kill a room full of children. Plus whatever else he did in his 30 years of being Vader. You don't get to say "Sorry! My bad!" and it's all OK.

The force ghost thing, on the other hand, is a secret Qui Gonn learned and taught to Yoda, who taught it to Obi Wan. Nobody taught it to Anakin.

Even assuming he taught it to himself after seeing Obi Wan do it on the Death Star, he should be an old man, not Hayden Christenson. Or Obi Wan should be Ewan McGregor. I guess they get to choose their force ghost appearance, and Obi Wan likes the way he looks old better!

You may enjoy this, if you haven't seen it already (relevant part starts at 3:00):

[video=youtube;zdukWtJwlPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdukWtJwlPU[/video]

 

[Umbran]

Yes. As I said, they're two different issues. The redemption (or lack of it) and the force ghost aren't connected.

Well, I think of it as there being more than one kind of redemption, and they are sometimes linked, sometimes not.

There's redemption in the moral sense that you and I consider when we think that this person had killed a bunch of kids, and how do we think of him (and how do we think of him twenty years after that incident)?

There's redemption in the eyes of the Force - he's no longer of the Dark Side. To gamers, this probably also means the character is actually moral enough to play in a game, whereas when he's of the Dark Side, he's probably only allowed as an NPC.

These two things sometimes coincide, and sometimes don't.

 

[MarkB]

If there's one thing I particularly dislike about the prequels, it's that they seriously undercut the concept of Vader overcoming the darkness and turning back to the good person he once was. The Anakin of the prequels is such a whiny, obsessive, self-centred brat that there's really very little of that "good man" visible for us to identify with. We're not left with any real sense of the noble person who was lost when he turned to darkness, and thus have no reason to welcome his return when he finally overcomes the darkness.

 

[delericho]

Fair point - so, are the Jedi (and there's only two of them on planet at the time, right?) supposed to start the equivalent of an international incident over it? I suspect when outside their area of technical jurisdiction, they're supposed to keep it down to a dull roar...

No, indeed. They're in the midst of a mission of vital importance - Qui-Gon is right to prioritise his mission.

What's less clear is why Anakin never goes back to get his mother, or at least sends someone. But even that's not really an issue with Jedi morality.

 

[Umbran]

If there's one thing I particularly dislike about the prequels, it's that they seriously undercut the concept of Vader overcoming the darkness and turning back to the good person he once was. The Anakin of the prequels is such a whiny, obsessive, self-centred brat that there's really very little of that "good man" visible for us to identify with. We're not left with any real sense of the noble person who was lost when he turned to darkness, and thus have no reason to welcome his return when he finally overcomes the darkness.

I think we find a goodly amount of that unfortunately tucked away in the Clone Wars animated series. What I have seen of it shows Anakin to be flawed, but there's some merit in there....

 

[Ryujin]

I think we find a goodly amount of that unfortunately tucked away in the Clone Wars animated series. What I have seen of it shows Anakin to be flawed, but there's some merit in there....

Yes, I would say that "The Clone Wars" shows Anakin to be rather rash and impulsive, rather than actively evil. Unfortunately if someone told me that the character's portrayal in the prequel trilogy was the inspiration for a certain fanged and sparkly character in another movie series, I'd likely buy it.