D&D 5E December Survey is Up

[UngeheuerLich]

I think they were intentionally better in certain situations, but worse in others.
Only a few were more powerful, because they were designed to plug holes in the rules.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do think that 5e PrCs, if they follow a "magic item" model, might have room to be strictly better than the base class.

Thus, "prestige" - they're a reward for your character, something that does improve them. Maybe even something that uses up attunement slots?!

...thinking about that, it would mesh a little better with the level variation in 5e if it DID eat up attunement slots instead of class levels....hmmm....

 

[Mephista]

How is it an OOC problem?

Considering we're talking about a metagame issue, how is it not?

However, encouraging roleplaying in general can be very helpful. Fostering players' sense of investment in their characters leads to them making more in-character decisions, like "Maybe Bosgrund Boldblood wouldn't randomly make a deal with a devil for power." And if Bosgrund does make that deal, playing out the consequences of the decision in-character makes it a lot more palatable for everybody at the table than if if were just "Hey, look at this cool trick I can do because I'm a munchkin!" Spotlighting roleplaying reinforces roleplaying. That's not a bad thing. You may worry you're rewarding them for making a twink move -- but paradoxically, you're also probably reducing the chances they'll make the same move on a different character.

It feels like you're talking down to me. I'm well aware of the psychology of my own players, thank you very much. Spotlight hogging is always bad. Have to share the love around to everyone. No, it won't reduce the chances, and if my players think I'm manipulating them, they won't be happy. Lastly, why should I suffer through a long game with it when its just something I can say "don't do that" to start with?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

It feels like you're talking down to me.

Read back what you wrote to me and ask yourself whether you're the pot or the kettle here.

 

[TwoSix]

I do think that 5e PrCs, if they follow a "magic item" model, might have room to be strictly better than the base class.

Thus, "prestige" - they're a reward for your character, something that does improve them. Maybe even something that uses up attunement slots?!

...thinking about that, it would mesh a little better with the level variation in 5e if it DID eat up attunement slots instead of class levels....hmmm....

Makes sense, especially if the PrC has scaling abilities. Attunement slots become more valuable at higher level, since they're fixed at 3 and magic item power will increase with level (presumably). So giving up an attunement slot might be a great deal at level 6, and not nearly so good when you have to pick between two legendary items at level 18.

Hmm...maybe the prestige class has abilities than can be attuned. Almost like an Incarnum 2.0.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Makes sense, especially if the PrC has scaling abilities. Attunement slots become more valuable at higher level, since they're fixed at 3 and magic item power will increase with level (presumably). So giving up an attunement slot might be a great deal at level 6, and not nearly so good when you have to pick between two legendary items at level 18.

Hmm...maybe the prestige class has abilities than can be attuned. Almost like an Incarnum 2.0.

I like this because it's independent of multiclassing and things like ASI increases. You could cram more than one "class feature" into a given attunement slot if you wanted to, or you could keep each one big enough to compete with other magic items. You could treat it as a "reward," and you wouldn't have to worry about balancing it with class features or using XP to advance it.

Like, if you wanted to do the Rune Scribe thing, you'd just have attunement let you access the complex powers, maybe give them an X/day limit and/or allow the PC to spend spell slots to use them (which might limit it to spellcasters, but that might be OK). A character would be a Rune Scribe as they seek out and attune to the runes. They wouldn't need to also devote XP to it.

I don't know that I'm 100% sold on it (getting magic items is a Pretty Neat Thing in D&D and eating up your attunement slots works a bit against that), but it's an interesting idea, and it might ultimately fill the same design niche (attunement is for items that are kind of powerful and character-defining, not for EVERY magic item, and what is character-defining more than taking a "Prestige"? ). It's worth exploring.

 

[Tallifer]

I asked for on-line tools, especially a Character Builder. As the Unearthed Arcana piles up, the choices and pages to sift through (especially for a dungeon master checking his players' characters) are proliferating. Not nearly as bad as early editions yet, thankfully.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I hate the idea of prestige classes in 5e with a passion. It's been discussed before on other threads, but they are absolutely unnecessary as they are trespassing on the same area already covered by subclasses and feats (and to a lesser extent, backgrounds and factions). Whenever new material is created as a prestige class, that is material that isn't available via a feat or a subclass. The only motivation for making them would be because some people liked them in 3e. There is no solid reason in 5e design space for them to exist.

I also despise the "prestige" idea about them. By its very nature it says that other classes are "less prestigious." Prestige very easily implies a concept of being elite or special. As if being a freaking wizard or paladin isn't elite or special? "But this is even more special!" I even had a player in one of my 3e edition groups (I wasn't the DM for this one) who wasn't happy that the DM (her husband) was discouraging prestige classes, because it meant you couldn't be an elite character. Yes, this really does impact how you view the game world.

It changes the game from both a design space mechanical perspective, and from a conceptual perspective. Unlike the inclusion of races you may not like (for instance), simply not using prestige classes isn't a solution--their existence changes the game and effects everyone regardless of whether their group even uses them.


On the other hand, the rest of the material didn't both me at all. While some of the options I liked better than others, and I'd like them to be careful to avoid bloat, they did a pretty good job with them as far as sticking to 5e design paradigms. This is contrasted to both the previous experimental ranger builds where the violated previous 5e design paradigms.

See, I like 5e. I like its design paradigms. If they violate those (giving weird "2d6" as HD, for instance) they are creating a new incremental edition. We don't need a blasted 5.5e. Just no.

 

[TwoSix]

I like this because it's independent of multiclassing and things like ASI increases. You could cram more than one "class feature" into a given attunement slot if you wanted to, or you could keep each one big enough to compete with other magic items. You could treat it as a "reward," and you wouldn't have to worry about balancing it with class features or using XP to advance it.

Yea, I think giving out "boons" that mimic class features but eat up attunement slots can be pretty flavorful. Ultimately, whether you're giving out magic items or boons or prestige classes, you're still going outside the class structure and boosting the power level. That's why I don't think it's necessary to balance prestige classes with base classes, any more than magic items are balanced against no magic items. The prestige class functions as a reward in the exact same way a magic item does.

Like, if you wanted to do the Rune Scribe thing, you'd just have attunement let you access the complex powers, maybe give them an X/day limit and/or allow the PC to spend spell slots to use them (which might limit it to spellcasters, but that might be OK). A character would be a Rune Scribe as they seek out and attune to the runes. They wouldn't need to also devote XP to it.

That being said, I think there's a lot of value in giving out prestige classes as an alternate way to spend class levels. I know you said earlier that you like the idea of the built-in narrative of progression that a 20-level class provides; but I'm actually in the opposite camp. In my experience, nothing motivates players more than getting new abilities, not even magic items. But the automatic gaining of abilities just for showing up often allows people to just go with the flow and let the game take its course, without a lot of engagement. I'm hoping to jumpstart players by forcing them to seek out new abilities if they want to advance their character.

I don't know that I'm 100% sold on it (getting magic items is a Pretty Neat Thing in D&D and eating up your attunement slots works a bit against that), but it's an interesting idea, and it might ultimately fill the same design niche (attunement is for items that are kind of powerful and character-defining, not for EVERY magic item, and what is character-defining more than taking a "Prestige"? ). It's worth exploring.

Well, 5e is the homebrew edition, so no better time to start!

 

[I'm A Banana]

That being said, I think there's a lot of value in giving out prestige classes as an alternate way to spend class levels. I know you said earlier that you like the idea of the built-in narrative of progression that a 20-level class provides; but I'm actually in the opposite camp. In my experience, nothing motivates players more than getting new abilities, not even magic items. But the automatic gaining of abilities just for showing up often allows people to just go with the flow and let the game take its course, without a lot of engagement. I'm hoping to jumpstart players by forcing them to seek out new abilities if they want to advance their character.

Yeah, I'm 100% on board with 4-5 level "class sprints" that cover one tier that then end and if you want to get the next level, you've gotta seek out some world element to get it.

The challenge is in the fiction abilities / flags. Being a champion fighter is character-defining. Champion fighters are a certain sort of character and, in addition to their combat prowess, have elements spread out over 20 levels that enhance that "personality." Being a squire-knight-dragonslayer-war king is less one narrative and more four different narratives, and each one has less room to breathe in terms of class abilities. They also don't necessarily play nice together mechanically - one price might be that you'd have to limit novel class mechanics so that they could fit together (no "one class has spellcasting / one class has pact magic" stuff).

I don't think these are insurmountable challenges, but I do think the class system will look very different than the existing 5e class system, and I'm not totally sure they'd play well together (ie, if someone played a Champion Fighter in the same campaign as a squire-knight-dragonslayer-war king, I dunno that would work....), so it might be a situation where you replace the class system in 5e (which is a big part of the game!) with this system (and maybe another system or two)...which makes it a bridge too far for a lot of folks to absorb.

But I'd love to hear about any experiments you do in this avenue.