dave2008
Legend
Not sure if this has been posted somewhere already, but I just noticed the new 5e survey is up. It is asking questions about the last 2 UA articles, Here it is: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/december-2015-survey
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The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D 5E December Survey is Up
- Thread starter dave2008
- Start date
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Finally, a survey for two of my favorite UA articles so far. They got glowing reviews from me, more crunch with some interesting takes on the material is right up my alley. Heck, my next campaign is going to be focused on magic items that grant prestige classes, it's such a fantastic idea to tie class progression into the adventure, instead of just static builds.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I was overall positive. Aside from a few quibbles, it was pretty solid stuff.
I'm loving this presentation of PrC's in theory, but the Rune Scribe in particular is a bit meh. I wish they'd figure out if they want this one to be a CLASS or a set of MAGIC ITEMS, because as both, it doesn't work too well. It is like I am saying "my character is ALL ABOUT THIS now! Don't give me anything else." I also wish they'd get a better story than "runes are hidden, GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL."
I like the fighting styles, the ranger, the sorcerer, and the warlock options all just fine, though fire spells seems odd for a radiant warlock, and some of the ranger abilities were meh and the Hound of Ill Omen...doesn't seem to make much sense...but those are all pretty minor points.
I do wish we would've seen some of the results from the last poll, though. I bet that inspired some interesting convos at WotC HQ.
I'm loving this presentation of PrC's in theory, but the Rune Scribe in particular is a bit meh. I wish they'd figure out if they want this one to be a CLASS or a set of MAGIC ITEMS, because as both, it doesn't work too well. It is like I am saying "my character is ALL ABOUT THIS now! Don't give me anything else." I also wish they'd get a better story than "runes are hidden, GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL."
I like the fighting styles, the ranger, the sorcerer, and the warlock options all just fine, though fire spells seems odd for a radiant warlock, and some of the ranger abilities were meh and the Hound of Ill Omen...doesn't seem to make much sense...but those are all pretty minor points.
I do wish we would've seen some of the results from the last poll, though. I bet that inspired some interesting convos at WotC HQ.
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NotActuallyTim
First Post
I really liked the Runes, and I was OKish with Runescribe. I suggested dropping the built in Rune abilities and replacing them with faster attunement to Runes, allowing scribes to quickly switch from one Rune to the next.
Li Shenron
Legend
I had many conflicting feelings about these 2 UA articles
1- I am in favor of introducing prestige classes to 5e, as long as we try to stay away from all the traps. The first and most obvious trap is of course that of starting to turn every concept into a prestige class just to fill tons of books, but this is at the moment fortunately impossible with WotC current publishing rate and policy anyway.
But personally I think that the worst trap in 3e was with prerequisites. They were almost always garbage! Really the idea of a prerequisite should be seriously re-discussed among designers... In the Runes Scribe example they still worked like a TAX, as something you pay and then it's gone so totally forget about it.
There is only 3 types of things that should ever be prerequisites (for prestige classes or anything else):
a) LEVEL: this ensures you know exactly when a PC will get each feature, and can balance it with the rest of the game
b) NARRATIVE: to let the DM control access to the prestige class or whatever, by connecting it to the fantasy setting and story
c) ABILITIES that following features are BUILT UPON: so if the prestige class improves your spellcasting, you must have spellcasting in the first place
Everything else is a design mistake. Requiring a proficiency that the prestige class doesn't ever mention afterwards is wrong. Not to mention that in 5e it's very hard to gain proficiencies after 1st level, so you'll have stupid situations like a player who after months of playing the game discovers a prestige class option, but cannot use it because she didn't pick a proficiency at 1st level, unless the DM allows feats. She has to ask the DM for letting her spend a feat just to get Skilled, wait a few more levels before finally entering the prestige class, and then she doesn't even ever uses that proficiency because the prestige class does not offer anything related to it... (And don't get me started on ability scores prerequisites).
For the purpose of DM's control over prestige class access, the only thing you really need is narrative, plus minimum level to help the DM avoiding granting too early access. Nothing else is needed, and anything just becomes a tax for players.
Then I think the Runes Scribe is a great character concept, but probably doesn't need to be a prestige class, not with the current abilities at least, because they are not very "progressive", so why implementing them as a level progression?
OTOH all the runes were really cool... so I just feel like I'd like to have those magic runes in my game, but not the prestige class.
------------------------
2- All the Underdark article material was great in concept, but sprinkled with implementation issues...
- Great to see new Fighting Styles, but the first is clearly overpowered, and the second is unnecessarily clunky with its "activation" mechanic combined with infinite OA loophole (it could be simpler and loophole-proof)
- The Ranger archetype is great, except that it's got nothing to do with the Underground (except darkvision and spells)
- The Sorcerer archetype is great and with only minor issues
- The Warlock archetype is great too, again minor issues only, but I would have made it more strongly focused on a "light" theme rather than "light + fire", I don't think the "fire" aspects fits well with the positive plane concept. So I would change all fire spells and features into something else
1- I am in favor of introducing prestige classes to 5e, as long as we try to stay away from all the traps. The first and most obvious trap is of course that of starting to turn every concept into a prestige class just to fill tons of books, but this is at the moment fortunately impossible with WotC current publishing rate and policy anyway.
But personally I think that the worst trap in 3e was with prerequisites. They were almost always garbage! Really the idea of a prerequisite should be seriously re-discussed among designers... In the Runes Scribe example they still worked like a TAX, as something you pay and then it's gone so totally forget about it.
There is only 3 types of things that should ever be prerequisites (for prestige classes or anything else):
a) LEVEL: this ensures you know exactly when a PC will get each feature, and can balance it with the rest of the game
b) NARRATIVE: to let the DM control access to the prestige class or whatever, by connecting it to the fantasy setting and story
c) ABILITIES that following features are BUILT UPON: so if the prestige class improves your spellcasting, you must have spellcasting in the first place
Everything else is a design mistake. Requiring a proficiency that the prestige class doesn't ever mention afterwards is wrong. Not to mention that in 5e it's very hard to gain proficiencies after 1st level, so you'll have stupid situations like a player who after months of playing the game discovers a prestige class option, but cannot use it because she didn't pick a proficiency at 1st level, unless the DM allows feats. She has to ask the DM for letting her spend a feat just to get Skilled, wait a few more levels before finally entering the prestige class, and then she doesn't even ever uses that proficiency because the prestige class does not offer anything related to it... (And don't get me started on ability scores prerequisites).
For the purpose of DM's control over prestige class access, the only thing you really need is narrative, plus minimum level to help the DM avoiding granting too early access. Nothing else is needed, and anything just becomes a tax for players.
Then I think the Runes Scribe is a great character concept, but probably doesn't need to be a prestige class, not with the current abilities at least, because they are not very "progressive", so why implementing them as a level progression?
OTOH all the runes were really cool... so I just feel like I'd like to have those magic runes in my game, but not the prestige class.
------------------------
2- All the Underdark article material was great in concept, but sprinkled with implementation issues...
- Great to see new Fighting Styles, but the first is clearly overpowered, and the second is unnecessarily clunky with its "activation" mechanic combined with infinite OA loophole (it could be simpler and loophole-proof)
- The Ranger archetype is great, except that it's got nothing to do with the Underground (except darkvision and spells)
- The Sorcerer archetype is great and with only minor issues
- The Warlock archetype is great too, again minor issues only, but I would have made it more strongly focused on a "light" theme rather than "light + fire", I don't think the "fire" aspects fits well with the positive plane concept. So I would change all fire spells and features into something else
Azurewraith
Explorer
I had many conflicting feelings about these 2 UA articles
1- I am in favor of introducing prestige classes to 5e, as long as we try to stay away from all the traps. The first and most obvious trap is of course that of starting to turn every concept into a prestige class just to fill tons of books, but this is at the moment fortunately impossible with WotC current publishing rate and policy anyway.
But personally I think that the worst trap in 3e was with prerequisites. They were almost always garbage! Really the idea of a prerequisite should be seriously re-discussed among designers... In the Runes Scribe example they still worked like a TAX, as something you pay and then it's gone so totally forget about it.
There is only 3 types of things that should ever be prerequisites (for prestige classes or anything else):
a) LEVEL: this ensures you know exactly when a PC will get each feature, and can balance it with the rest of the game
b) NARRATIVE: to let the DM control access to the prestige class or whatever, by connecting it to the fantasy setting and story
c) ABILITIES that following features are BUILT UPON: so if the prestige class improves your spellcasting, you must have spellcasting in the first place
Everything else is a design mistake. Requiring a proficiency that the prestige class doesn't ever mention afterwards is wrong. Not to mention that in 5e it's very hard to gain proficiencies after 1st level, so you'll have stupid situations like a player who after months of playing the game discovers a prestige class option, but cannot use it because she didn't pick a proficiency at 1st level, unless the DM allows feats. She has to ask the DM for letting her spend a feat just to get Skilled, wait a few more levels before finally entering the prestige class, and then she doesn't even ever uses that proficiency because the prestige class does not offer anything related to it... (And don't get me started on ability scores prerequisites).
For the purpose of DM's control over prestige class access, the only thing you really need is narrative, plus minimum level to help the DM avoiding granting too early access. Nothing else is needed, and anything just becomes a tax for players.
Then I think the Runes Scribe is a great character concept, but probably doesn't need to be a prestige class, not with the current abilities at least, because they are not very "progressive", so why implementing them as a level progression?
OTOH all the runes were really cool... so I just feel like I'd like to have those magic runes in my game, but not the prestige class.
------------------------
2- All the Underdark article material was great in concept, but sprinkled with implementation issues...
- Great to see new Fighting Styles, but the first is clearly overpowered, and the second is unnecessarily clunky with its "activation" mechanic combined with infinite OA loophole (it could be simpler and loophole-proof)
- The Ranger archetype is great, except that it's got nothing to do with the Underground (except darkvision and spells)
- The Sorcerer archetype is great and with only minor issues
- The Warlock archetype is great too, again minor issues only, but I would have made it more strongly focused on a "light" theme rather than "light + fire", I don't think the "fire" aspects fits well with the positive plane concept. So I would change all fire spells and features into something else
I agree with pretty much everything you have said here I feel prestige classes should be specialize on what a class all ready has so it should require a class feature as a pre-req such as Hunting style for a Ranger and have it build upon the sub-class abilitys.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
I was overall positive. Aside from a few quibbles, it was pretty solid stuff.
I'm loving this presentation of PrC's in theory, but the Rune Scribe in particular is a bit meh. I wish they'd figure out if they want this one to be a CLASS or a set of MAGIC ITEMS, because as both, it doesn't work too well. It is like I am saying "my character is ALL ABOUT THIS now! Don't give me anything else." I also wish they'd get a better story than "runes are hidden, GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL."
I like the fighting styles, the ranger, the sorcerer, and the warlock options all just fine, though fire spells seems odd for a radiant warlock, and some of the ranger abilities were meh and the Hound of Ill Omen...doesn't seem to make much sense...but those are all pretty minor points.
I do wish we would've seen some of the results from the last poll, though. I bet that inspired some interesting convos at WotC HQ.
Given the magic item focus, I've been assuming the Rune Mage is a subclass of Artificer that they retooled to test prestige classes.
Jester David
Hero
The problem with the Prestige Class article is that it's really not enough to judge. It's not full content nor enough to really add to a game, so it reviews poorly.
Which is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: WotC doesn't want to devote a lot of time and energy to something people might not like so they halfass something and people don't like it.
I also think Undying Light needs a new name.
Which is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: WotC doesn't want to devote a lot of time and energy to something people might not like so they halfass something and people don't like it.
I also think Undying Light needs a new name.
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Cristian Andreu
Explorer
I admit I've always liked prestige classes (even if I usually banned 3/4ths of them in 3e), so I'm happy they are trying their hand with them again. Subclasses sort of makes a lot of them redundant, but they can be nice ways to introduce mechanical niches into the game, like Rune Magic.
