Captain America: Civil War (trailer with 100% more Spider-Man)

[Morrus]

Fighting against Hydra. For Fury. Chain of command.

Not the point. Fury wasn't in the chain of command at that point.She was fighting against the establishment which she knew to be Hydra, but again, not the point - she did what she thought was right, not what she was told to do. There's no way to twist the event son Winter Soldier to paint her as an establishment puppet. She's clearly the opposite of that, especially when she thinks the establishment is wrong.

 

[Ryujin]

Not the point. Fury wasn't in the chain of command at that point.She was fighting against the establishment which she knew to be Hydra, but again, not the point - she did what she thought was right, not what she was told to do. There's no way to twist the event son Winter Soldier to paint her as an establishment puppet. She's clearly the opposite of that, especially when she thinks the establishment is wrong.

Did I say "establishment puppet"? Nope. Consider the difference between the Chaotic and Lawful alignments. Fury is God. She follows her god. She has her own versions of honour and loyalty, and sticks to them. Consciously choosing your loyalties isn't being a puppet. She's anything but a puppet. She's a soldier, with a soldier's loyalties.

 

[Morrus]

Did I say "establishment puppet"? Nope. Consider the difference between the Chaotic and Lawful alignments. Fury is God. She follows her god. She has her own versions of honour and loyalty, and sticks to them. Consciously choosing your loyalties isn't being a puppet. She's anything but a puppet. She's a soldier, with a soldier's loyalties.

No, you said "She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment." You were pretty unequivocal about it.

Which clearly isn't the case. She doesn't do what she's told, no matter how distasteful. And when she chooses to be, she is no longer part of the The Establishment.

 

[Ryujin]

No, you said "She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment." You were pretty unequivocal about it.

Which clearly isn't the case. She doesn't do what she's told, no matter how distasteful. And when she chooses to be, she is no longer part of the The Establishment.

It depends on what you define as "the establishment." You call Hydra, a criminal organization, the establishment. I call it her chain of command, who are resisting the control of a criminal organization.

*EDIT* To further explain my position these are the players we are discussing, as I see them:

Captain America
- Archtype - Idealist
- D&D Alignment - CG
- Methodology - Soldier

Black Widow
- Archtype - Soldier
- D&D Alignment - LN
- Methodology - Covert Operative

Hydra
- Archtype - Evil Organization
- D&D Alignment - LE
- Methodology - Government Subversion

 

[Morrus]

It depends on what you define as "the establishment." You call Hydra, a criminal organization, the establishment. I call it her chain of command, who are resisting the control of a criminal organization.

Semantics. The Establishment, her chain of command, was the government, in the person of Robert Redford. She decided to disobey him when she decided he was a bad guy. Therefore she does not do the job whatever, n matter how distasteful. She does what she considers to be the right thing - in this case going on the run from the government as a wanted criminal with Cap.

This discussion is silly. You're chasing your position and moving goalposts pretty constantly. I'll leave you to it, I think.

 

[Ryujin]

Semantics. The Establishment, her chain of command, was the government, in the person of Robert Redford. She decided to disobey him when she decided he was a bad guy. Therefore she does not do the job whatever, n matter how distasteful. She does what she considers to be the right thing - in this case going on the run from the government as a wanted criminal with Cap.

This discussion is silly. You're chasing your position and moving goalposts pretty constantly. I'll leave you to it, I think.

Trying to explain how I have set the goalposts isn't moving them, but as you wish

 

[Umbran]

I
Captain America
- Archtype - Idealist
- D&D Alignment - CG
- Methodology - Soldier

Nah. Cap is NG. He very strongly abides by the law, until such time as that law is seen to be a specific problem, and then he will violate it, with a significant amount of angst over the fact. he does *not* like violating the law.

 

[Ryujin]

Nah. Cap is NG. He very strongly abides by the law, until such time as that law is seen to be a specific problem, and then he will violate it, with a significant amount of angst over the fact. he does *not* like violating the law.

Yeah, I can easily concede that point.

 

[Staffan]

And that's the point: You do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because it's easy or safe.

Or as he put it in the comics:

That's Joe "Babylon 5" Straczynski putting the words in Cap's mouth, by the way. Standing up to authority in the name of what is Right is a big thing in that show as well.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

is it bad to imagine Black Widow underroos?

I'm on my way to google to look for them now...

http://www.hottopic.com/brands/unde...11923724&009=p&011=black widow underoos&025=c

nope... I'll settle for she ra