Harassment in gaming

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Actually, while the guardian angels did have some issues with violence perpetrated by their members, other groups who have relied on calling in witness reports- sometimes with photographic or video support- have been pretty effective.

While I suggested see it report it upthread, actually having a group of people who are both vocal about actively ending harassment and willing to be visible while doing it MIGHT have a net positive effect.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Celebrim, neither Idem nor Isum can- by themselves- result in true knowledge of a person. One is gross overview related, one is detail oriented. You need both.

But I'll say this: I probably know more about you if I know you're a tall, white, male, Zoroastrian, blonde, blue eyed, C&W loving log cabin republican (Isum) than if I know your signature (Idem).
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
That's obnoxious. I'm sorry you were subjected to that.

Although I didn't relate that experience to garner sympathy, your empathizing with how I felt is much appreciated.


Also, thanks for causing me to look up obnoxious. When I initially read your response, I thought "Obnoxious? That sounds rather soft." I am rather proud of how extensive my vocabulary is. However, the common usage of obnoxious has caused the general understanding of the definition to be more akin to "annoying" than "deeply unpleasant." So thanks for causing me to brush up on my language skills.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Years ago I had an experience that almost caused be to quit playing D&D. My DM relocated, so I had to find a new group to game with. I found a group, but I didn't really know anyone there. During the game, the party bit off more than it could chew, and we were captured. I was the only female player, and I played the only female character in the group. The DM proceeded to have our captors rape my character. He even pushed me to roleplay the scene, describing what the rapist was doing to my character and asking me what my character was doing.

I was horrified to the point of silence.

When I looked around the table for support, the other players just stared at me and watched as my face turned pale, glancing back to the DM as he described the "action." Once I realized that yes, this was actually happening and they expected me to be a part of it, I grabbed my stuff and left as quickly as I could.

I've heard these horror stories many times, and I can't relate them to my play very well at all. In general, D&D doesn't generally allow players to be captured all that easily. It's far easier to kill players than capture them. That's probably a good thing.

It's very hard for me to get into the heads of anyone in the scene you describe. I have no idea what the motivations were, whether prurient, clueless, or to inflict degradation on a stranger. It just seems strange to me, not the least of which that they would be comfortable to play out a scene such as that with a complete stranger. I wouldn't be comfortable going into the details of a sexual scene with a friend, and any time any sexual contact occurs, it tends to be handwaved with, "You may assume whatever you think would occur, did occur." and we bang to a further scene.

I'll say this though, I've never once had a good experience gaming with strangers, and the only time I've ever played with strangers more than once, it was because I was the GM and I organized the group... and knew within 15 minutes that it was going to be a disaster, but continued for a few sessions out of my sense of obligation. In my experience, RPing - at least the part that isn't simply wargaming - is too intimate and too intense of an activity even when it isn't discussing sexual matters to do well and comfortably among strangers face to face.

That said though, I wouldn't mind forking out at some point to discussing consent issues at a gaming table, just because I can think of situations that have come up in play - always handled with a handwave as I said - which were to my mind at least parallel to rape either of male or female characters (to be feasted on by a vampire, for example). And I would love to have your thoughts on such situations, and how they ought to be handled, and whether players ought to be protected from them, and whether it matters if it is occurring in a spot that has already been established as 'safe' because you trust everyone present. And I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on related topics, such as the suitability of men playing female characters, which I can see regularly leading at some point to exploring the most unfamiliar terrain of that territory whether out of curiosity or prurience, and how you think GMs ought to handle it when it does.

Or in short, anything of practical significance rather than us fighting the great battles of the political sphere here.
 

I don't have the words or the idea to solve this. Every time someone posts how it happened to them I just get more frustrated I cannot stop it.

... Don't get physical or anything just have your phone ready to call for help if that is needed or just be there to assure others they are safe.

You actually just pointed out the best tool available. Nowadays, a huge chunk of the population is constantly carrying a video camera with them everywhere. Recording (with either audio or video) any incident is absolutely the best way to prove what really went on. It helps prove criminal acts to police. It gives proof to con administrators who struggle with "he said she said" problems. And sharing evidence (better than just stories) on the internet is an alternative when people in positions of authority don't respond properly.

IMNSHO, the main factor behind many incidents of sexual harassment is that people think there won't be any consequences. The more that society as a whole learns that our new technology can lead to more consequences for this sort of thing, the less prevalent it will be.
 


Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]

I think I see a bit more clearly what the issue is. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. The issue is not that you disagree with identity politics. It's possible to disagree with a viewpoint while still respecting it and the place it comes from enough to reach an actual middle ground. It is that you hold the very idea of them (and potentially the people who place great significance in them, though it could just be me ;)) in contempt. You find them actively harmful to any sort of productive discussion. And frankly, reading your post, I can understand why. Oh, I don't agree with your reasoning in the least bit, I find it a complete mis-characterization of what identity politics are and why they matter, and I could spell out any number of reasons why, but those wouldn't be pertinent to the discussion and you don't seem to really want to have it in the first place. Understand, though, that when you say you're not willing to budge an inch then you are not actually trying to reach a middle ground on the issue at all. We're at an impasse, because frankly my views on the subject are as intractable as yours.

Moving on to a fruitful seeming topic of discussion, you raise an exceptionally important point on the subject of consent at gaming tables. I certainly try to make it clear at my table what sorts of topics are or are not going to be present or acceptable in my game, and it does vary based on campaign and player makeup. For instance, I hope to run Curse of Strahd soon(ish...) for my players, a group which includes my partner. She just gave birth to our daughter last year and still has a great deal of sensitivity to notion of children being in danger (or actually dying). Spoilers if you haven't read CoS, but there are a lot of children in danger of, or actually, dying, or having already died. That's a conversation I plan on having with her (and really everyone) and if necessary I will either make adjustments as necessary or perhaps she (or others) might sit the campaign out, or I may just decide to scrap the whole thing and come up with something else. Like you I prefer gaming with friends infinitely more than gaming with strangers, and I'd rather run a campaign my friends will have fun with and feel comfortable playing. I feel like these types of conversations (individually or with the group) will also resolve many of the issues that can be present with a player playing a PC of a different gender or sexuality from their own before they crop up.

While obviously this would be more intensive process with myself and my friends; I think a very basic and less-spoilery approach to this consent building would be more than appropriate from game store or con games, and woudl go a long way towards making them more approachable to people whose experiences would make them less inclined to give them a try (while also signalling to people who would otherwise engage in harassment or other uncouth behavior that it won't be tolerated at this table).
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
What's the line they removed from Minsc?

It was a joke satirizing GamerGate. And it got people whining about disrupting a well-written character in favor of social justice campaigning. I think it might come across as excessively dating if the game's still being played by anyone 10 years from now, but that's about it. It's not like Minsc isn't written for comedy in the first place with his relationship with his miniature giant space hamster. I think people just don't like being the butt of the joke and are falling back on the "poorly written" criticism in order to duck that assessment.
 


MechaPilot

Explorer
I've heard these horror stories many times, and I can't relate them to my play very well at all. In general, D&D doesn't generally allow players to be captured all that easily. It's far easier to kill players than capture them. That's probably a good thing.

I would suggest that it's the DM handwaving death into capture. I've handwaved death into capture several times, but that's because I think party death is boring (it really does cause the game to grind to an immediate halt). However, when I do it, I don't have the PCs raped by their captors. I'll have them ransomed back to their families (or a wealthy patron). I'll have them stripped of gear and left for dead. I'll have them geased to carry out a mission for their captors. I'll turn the jailbreak into a mini adventure. In short, things that keep the characters alive but further the story of the characters.


I wouldn't be comfortable going into the details of a sexual scene with a friend, and any time any sexual contact occurs, it tends to be handwaved with, "You may assume whatever you think would occur, did occur." and we bang to a further scene.

I think many tables have a "fade to black" preference for things they aren't comfortable with. For some this is just the actual sex scene, for others it also includes the preceding seduction. I know that I personally fade to black for interrogation scenes: I've found that roleplaying interrogation scenes all too often turns into torture-porn. I also fade to black for sex scenes: whether I do so or not for the seduction/romance part depends on the type of campaign that I'm running at the time.


That said though, I wouldn't mind forking out at some point to discussing consent issues at a gaming table, just because I can think of situations that have come up in play - always handled with a handwave as I said - which were to my mind at least parallel to rape either of male or female characters (to be feasted on by a vampire, for example). And I would love to have your thoughts on such situations, and how they ought to be handled, and whether players ought to be protected from them, and whether it matters if it is occurring in a spot that has already been established as 'safe' because you trust everyone present. And I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on related topics, such as the suitability of men playing female characters, which I can see regularly leading at some point to exploring the most unfamiliar terrain of that territory whether out of curiosity or prurience, and how you think GMs ought to handle it when it does.

Or in short, anything of practical significance rather than us fighting the great battles of the political sphere here.

Sure. I don't know if you want to start a different thread or continue here (the subjects are somewhat related as you say), but I'll start by talking about men playing female characters.

Men playing female characters can lead to some offensive stereotypes at the table (emphasis on "can." I am definitely not saying "will"). As one example, I recall one man (the step-brother of a friend who had joined us for a few game sessions) who played a female character at the same table as myself. He played her fairly normally, and then after a few in-game days the character started fighting with the rest of the party (mostly verbal, but at one point physically). When the DM, who was the male friend of mine, asked his step-brother what was up with the character's sudden personality change, the step-brother replied, "I'm acting in character! She's just on the rag." More than one facepalm ensued.

Occasional offensive stereotypes aside, I generally like when men play female characters. When a man has a female character and he is actively trying to be/stay in character, you often get the truest glimpse of what that man thinks a woman is really like. It's always particularly enlightening when those character choices include wild mood/emotional swings, sluttyness/nymphomania, or being a cold-hearted :p:p:p:p:p
 

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