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D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

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Hussar

Legend
I'm confused by the argument that for the same standards to apply you have to be publishing D&D. But, I'll bite, again. Why should the US have D&D that has 1/6th ethnic Chinese representations, but the Chinese printing have almost all ethnic Chinese representations? Why should the US be held to the standard of reflecting the world ethnic makeup but other country's have a different standard?

What Chinese printing? The imaginary one you are constructing for your straw man?

"They're bad, so, we don't have to be better" is a very, very poor argument. Or, are you saying we should only be inclusive in our publications when the rest of the world is equally inclusive, while completely ignoring demographics in our respective countries?
 

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Hussar

Legend
Look. At the end of the day, there's only one real answer to the question, "Why should we make the game more inclusive?"

"Because it's the right thing to do."

End of story. Full stop. Make the game more inclusive because it's the right thing to do. I don't care what anyone else does. I don't care what any other country does. It doesn't matter in the slightest if no one else does this.

It's the right thing to do.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What Chinese printing? The imaginary one you are constructing for your straw man?
Well, you said that my general question wasn't answerable without a Chinese D&D, so I was just trying to follow that with a hypothetical that imagined just that. Don't blame me for your rabbit holes.
"They're bad, so, we don't have to be better" is a very, very poor argument.
So, then, are we good enough to be held to a better standard than those worse than us? China is then worse than us, and needs an easier standard?

Don't you see the inherent racism in this?

Or, are you saying we should only be inclusive in our publications when the rest of the world is equally inclusive, while completely ignoring demographics in our respective countries?

Not a bit. What we do shouldn't care about what others do. I'm a firm believer in character being what you do when others aren't watching. My point is that if we hold ourselves to a high standard, we should hold others to the sane standard. To do otherwise is to tacitly acknowledge that not only do we think ourselves better, but that others aren't good enough to be held to our standards. That's my issue, the soft peddling lower standards for those not us is a form of stealth racism.
 

Patrick McGill

First Post
Well, you said that my general question wasn't answerable without a Chinese D&D, so I was just trying to follow that with a hypothetical that imagined just that. Don't blame me for your rabbit holes.

So, then, are we good enough to be held to a better standard than those worse than us? China is then worse than us, and needs an easier standard?

Don't you see the inherent racism in this?



Not a bit. What we do shouldn't care about what others do. I'm a firm believer in character being what you do when others aren't watching. My point is that if we hold ourselves to a high standard, we should hold others to the sane standard. To do otherwise is to tacitly acknowledge that not only do we think ourselves better, but that others aren't good enough to be held to our standards. That's my issue, the soft peddling lower standards for those not us is a form of stealth racism.

I'll be frank, this line of argument seems to be ignoring actual demographic standards in China. Chinese media tends to showcase an exaggerated number of non-chinese phenotypes (specifically white and black people) in comparison to their own population. While I think this tangential argument is a hypothetical distraction from the actual point of the conversation at this point (whether D&D being diverse and inclusive is a worthwhile thing or not), I just wanted to point out that actually, yes, Chinese media is more diverse in comparison to their actual demographics than what you guys seem to be thinking. So if there were a Chinese D&D, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't also follow this trend.

To get back on topic (if there is a topic at this point), it's a simple idea about why D&D should be inclusive and diverse -because that is what is selling right now. The millennial market demands these things, and as good capitalists WotC is following this. Not only in D&D but also in their Magic the Gathering line of products. The young market is the one where they can (and probably are) making the most money, and that demographic is overwhelmingly concerned about diversity and representation in the media and entertainment they consume. While diversity might not be an important factor for some of you guys here in this forum, it most certainly is for a company wanting to thrive in a current market economy.

My personal opinion is that this is a net good for society.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Well, you said that my general question wasn't answerable without a Chinese D&D, so I was just trying to follow that with a hypothetical that imagined just that. Don't blame me for your rabbit holes.

So, then, are we good enough to be held to a better standard than those worse than us? China is then worse than us, and needs an easier standard?

Don't you see the inherent racism in this?



Not a bit. What we do shouldn't care about what others do. I'm a firm believer in character being what you do when others aren't watching. My point is that if we hold ourselves to a high standard, we should hold others to the sane standard. To do otherwise is to tacitly acknowledge that not only do we think ourselves better, but that others aren't good enough to be held to our standards. That's my issue, the soft peddling lower standards for those not us is a form of stealth racism.

Even if that was what Hussar is saying, and it isn't, it wouldn't be racist. That is absurd.

I hold myself self to a higher standard than I hold anyone else to because I haven't the same right to judge others that I have to judge my own actions. It has nothing to do with how "good" anyone is.

But again, it isn't about a higher or lower standard, it is a different standard because the situation is different. If the demo of Peking is 99% Chinese (it isn't, but for simplicity imagine it is), then its less bad for a Chinese movie set there to have 99% native Chinese actors, than it would be to make a tv show in Boston entirely white.

Further, when Chinese studios make a movie for the global market, it is usually a movie that is created as a window into China's ancient culture by way of mythos, like Crouching Tiger. Essentially the same as an Irish movie about some ancient Irish mythological hero.

Every single major american release is expected to be viewed internationally. Every last damn one. Further, American media has a long history of erasing and/or stereotyping the diversity of its audience and the places and times it depicts. The potential audience for American media is simply more diverse than media from any other nation, which means that American media needs to reflect the diversity of its audience.
Instead, our movies and tv and even comic books show scenes of predominately Black or Latin American cities/neighborhoods, and they're full of white people.
Hollywood makes a movie about Stonewall, and invents a white cis dude to be its hero, instead of the trans women of color that actually were the heroes of that story.
I go to the theater and a preview starts, and it's showing the Great Wall, and...####ing Matt Damon!? Seriously? Matt Damon is the hero of the story about fighting dragons on The Great Wall of China!? Really!? Apparently what the wall should have been built to keep out was ####ing white people!

People should be able to see themselves in some of the media they consume. No one expects every peice of media to match exact percentages of global or local demographics. US media just needs to not be an endless sea of straight, cis, white dudes.
 

Patrick McGill

First Post
I go to the theater and a preview starts, and it's showing the Great Wall, and...####ing Matt Damon!? Seriously? Matt Damon is the hero of the story about fighting dragons on The Great Wall of China!? Really!? Apparently what the wall should have been built to keep out was ####ing white people!

Not to take away from your point, but that movie is a Chinese made movie (kind of supporting my point about Chinese media being more diverse than the demographics in China). It's made by a very lauded Chinese director, Zhang Yimou. The wikipedia article has a good summary of the director's thought's on the claims of white-washing in that film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wall_(film)

(Apologies, I'm a bit of of an avid consumer of Chinese media so I usually get a bit too into it when discussing it.)
 

seebs

Adventurer
Not to take away from your point, but that movie is a Chinese made movie (kind of supporting my point about Chinese media being more diverse than the demographics in China). It's made by a very lauded Chinese director, Zhang Yimou. The wikipedia article has a good summary of the director's thought's on the claims of white-washing in that film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wall_(film)

(Apologies, I'm a bit of of an avid consumer of Chinese media so I usually get a bit too into it when discussing it.)

Yeah, I was about to say, in this case, it's absolutely a considered and intentional choice by a Chinese director, and the fact that Matt Damon is not Chinese is in fact a plot point. So, yeah, that's not a good example at all of the problem.

EDIT: I should point out, given that Matt Damon is in the movie, and given who isn't, the answer to the question "what is the wall keeping out" is probably "Ben Affleck".
 
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Corwin

Explorer
Yeah, I was about to say, in this case, it's absolutely a considered and intentional choice by a Chinese director, and the fact that Matt Damon is not Chinese is in fact a plot point. So, yeah, that's not a good example at all of the problem.
Totes. Uninformed faux outrage is the most entertaining kind of outrage, IMO.
 

tuxgeo

Adventurer
So, disregarding the recent (multi-pages long) sidetrack into disparity of diversity (to coin a phrase), I finally bookmarked the Amazon Help page for Bestsellers -- which I should have done years ago. . . .

As of today, 18 October 2016, the top three bestsellers in the Books -> Science Fiction & Fantasy -> Gaming category are: (1) D&D 5E PHB; (2) D&D 5E DMG, and (3) D&D 5E MM.

Furthermore, D&D 5E also holds these seven lower positions: (5) Starter Set, (7) Dungeon Masters Screen, (8) Volo's Guide to Monsters, (9) Storm King's Thunder, (17) Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, (18) Curse of Strahd, and (19) Hoard of the Dragon Queen; and that's merely in the Top 20.

There's a whole lot of (dice-)shakin' goin' on.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Not to take away from your point, but that movie is a Chinese made movie (kind of supporting my point about Chinese media being more diverse than the demographics in China). It's made by a very lauded Chinese director, Zhang Yimou. The wikipedia article has a good summary of the director's thought's on the claims of white-washing in that film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wall_(film)

(Apologies, I'm a bit of of an avid consumer of Chinese media so I usually get a bit too into it when discussing it.)

sure. I thought the way I worded it made it clear, but that was my reaction in the theater. The preview gave no reason to think it wasn't just another the last samurai. If movies like the last Mohican samurai who dances with wolves weren't so common, it would be easier to not react negatively to a preview like the one in question.

now, the fact that it's Chinese made doesn't necessarily mean it isn't that. Like all aspects of racism, whitewashing and white savior narratives can be and often are internalized and perpetuated by people in the communities affected by them. I'm not saying that is the case here, but it's worth remembering that the phenomenon exists in a discussion like this.

Either way, a better example would have been Doctor Strange. Arguably Iron Fist, but I'm torn on that. While I don't care if characters look the same in live action adaptations, I get that many people do. OTOH, the point of him being a white kid is for him to be an outsider. An Asian American would still be just as much an outsider. The only reason for him to be white in an adaptation is "canon", which I think is a super weak argument in this case. The MCU is definately its own canon, and they've already changed similar "canon". See, Doctor Strange's white Ancient One. Also, the guy playing the villain would have been a great Danny Rand.
 

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