What are people homebrewing?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Oddly EnWorld doesn't appear to have a specific home brew forum area (exception being the monsters sub-forum, not sure why its that specific). Anyway, I was curious about what people are doing that is either specifically 4e material, or '4e-like' games, etc. I know that can get a little fuzzy. We've talked about a lot of ideas and I think some different efforts have been mentioned in the "See What Sticks to the Wall" thread (and elsewhere at times). I just thought maybe it would be fun to start up a little bit more specific talk, to see what people are actually DOING!

I guess its necessary to start this off, since I HAVE been kinda slowly chipping away at my own little project. I also admit to a somewhat ulterior motive here, which is just that writing up enough material for a whole game is a LOT OF WORK, so at some point it either has to stagnate or more people need to play around with it. I'm sure that's true of other people's projects as well, so maybe if we all get them out here they'll get a little love.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-v2dGIE0Xm-YURWdjZRdmFoaGc Yes, feel free to flame me if you like, or whatever. I like compliments of course. I like specific ideas for more material most of all!

So who's next?

 

[Manbearcat]

Anyway, I was curious about what people are doing that is either specifically 4e material, or '4e-like' games, etc.

As far as 4e derivatives go, I'm running a bog standard 13th Age game and a Star Wars game using Strike! + the Vehicles supplement.

The former I'm luke warm on (not thrilled with the noncombat resolution mechanicsd), but a certain group of fellas wanted it...so, so be it.

Meanwhile, the latter is flat out awesome. I would highly recommend all 4e fans get Strike! and poach to their heart's content. I would specifically recommend it to folks who aren't thrilled about 4e's noncombat conflict resolution mechanics (the Skill Challenge). Strike!'s basic resolution engine (somewhat Powered By the Apocalypse like) is easily ported to 4e and would elegantly integrate with 4e's combat resolution mechanics.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

As far as 4e derivatives go, I'm running a bog standard 13th Age game and a Star Wars game using Strike! + the Vehicles supplement.

The former I'm luke warm on (not thrilled with the noncombat resolution mechanicsd), but a certain group of fellas wanted it...so, so be it.

Meanwhile, the latter is flat out awesome. I would highly recommend all 4e fans get Strike! and poach to their heart's content. I would specifically recommend it to folks who aren't thrilled about 4e's noncombat conflict resolution mechanics (the Skill Challenge). Strike!'s basic resolution engine (somewhat Powered By the Apocalypse like) is easily ported to 4e and would elegantly integrate with 4e's combat resolution mechanics.

13a is an interesting game, but personally I didn't like its approach to class design. I felt like a lot of it was "lets just be different from 4e." Its messier and its hard to really see what's innovative about it, TBH. Plus the crunchy combat, gotta have that! Their spin on backgrounds and skills isn't bad though, IMHO.

Strike!'s resolution system seemed decent. Again though I had issue with the class design, this time the whole idea that you can just 'plug in' roles. It seemed forced in many cases, like you had mechanics, but they lacked theme. OTOH I'm still OK with the 4e SC system when its presented and utilized correctly/well.

These are 2 of the things that drove me to experiment with my own rules. I really wanted to keep the concept of a class with a role, and with a common platform approach where it has the same core power mechanics as other classes. I think HoML classes are 'weaker' than 4e classes, you aren't really prevented by 'RAW' from assembling most any set of elements into one character, regardless of your class. It will definite take some time to do that if you started with say a fighter and want to be a spell caster, but definitely the classes are less rigid but at the same time I feel like they should be able to provide a more organic feel than the Strike! approach. Still really need to work out some things there though. It might be a good idea to have one 'special feature' per class that reinforces its role more, something you just can't poach.

Still, limited playtesting shows that low level PCs play pretty close to what you would expect for their classes (for those classes which are actually workable, you can definitely make a Knight, a Rogue, or a Cleric, Wizard is still stuck in some design indecision, and most of the other classes are less well fleshed out). The cleric is quite healy, the fighter seems to be decently sticky, the rogue stabbies things a lot. Outside of combat class is perhaps a bit more suggestive, but I think I am close to the goal of "if you just build a generic thief guy he'll work pretty much like an AD&D thief in a general sense."

Anyway, in some ways I do agree with the Strike! guys about granularity. Their use of a single d6 is interesting. I've kind of felt that I am attached to the d20 though, so instead I leveraged 5e's idea of advantage/disadvantage and threw in levels of success. Figured if I have a d20 I might as well get some added use out of that range of outcomes!

 

[C4]

I guess its necessary to start this off, since I HAVE been kinda slowly chipping away at my own little project. I also admit to a somewhat ulterior motive here, which is just that writing up enough material for a whole game is a LOT OF WORK, so at some point it either has to stagnate or more people need to play around with it. I'm sure that's true of other people's projects as well, so maybe if we all get them out here they'll get a little love.

No kidding! I've been working on my Points of Light game for almost three years now, and it is so much work! I've gone through varying phases of attention and energy. Currently I am feverishly scrabbling to get it playable -- not four-tiers complete, but playable -- by the new year so I can start playtesting. I feel possessed by some demon, frankly, and I think I'm going to be pretty frelling burned out by New Year's. But it'll be worth it.

I've made some innovations here and there, and taken a couple of big risks. I came up with the idea condition tracks -- independently of another 4e fan who came up with the same thing, it seems! -- which have allowed me to really define the controller role, and retool minion/elite/etc. monsters. Are condition tracks a case of great minds thinking alike, or much mold growing on the same stale toast? Can't wait to find out!

I've written enough low-level powers to create a variety of stock character concepts -- the equivalent of a few 1st level at-will/encounter/daily powers for each class in 4e -- and then said "After 5th level, your character has learned everything he/she can from his/her apprenticeship and is coming into his/her own. Here are some guidelines for you and your GM to come up with his/her own unique signature powers..." Did I do this because gamers writing their own material is more fun than everyone using one writer's ideas, or because writing a lot of powers is hard work for a single writer? Yes.

And lastly, I've created a new default setting, where the theme matches the new ruleset. Mortalkind has just escaped from the thrall of various Tyrants -- dragons, giants, puissants, and other monsters -- and is facing a new and uncertain future of both danger and promise. Still very much a D&D sort of place, but hopefully with a memorable twist.

 

[Cyvris]

Glad you asked, since I've started a rather meaty 4e homebrew project focused mostly on punching up "Roleplay" and making each class feel a little bit more unique with actual class feature choices.

Using the Essential's Mage as inspiration, I've decided to create a similar "Apprentice/Adept/Expert" style of class features for all the original classes. Some of it I'll freely take from Essentials (Mage and Warpriest are being folded into their parent classes, and their granted features are coming along) while other parts I'm going to take from Feats, which really need a good culling anyway. I'm going to pull some from 5e as well. The main "goal" is for each character to gain two "Novice" features, two adept, and one expert, mostly so there is actual progression of class features in heroic tier.

I'm also working on a simple Skill Point system; characters gain two "points" at levels 2/6/10 to invest in their skills. Each point in a skill unlocks (for free) the skill powers that correspond to that level. I'll be fleshing out some of them so they are generally equal, as well as adding a few new skills (again mostly pulled form 5e) to help round out the list.

Finally, I'm adding "Ritual Points" as a sort of Vancian system for 4e rituals. It should encourage them to be used more often. I'm rewriting a chunk of the ritual list, grabbing spells from other editions to round it out. I've not determined if I'll keep it tied to 4e levels or make it have the more traditional levels 1-9.


My "future" goal is to tweak 4e math down closer to 5e's Bounded Accuracy, though I have no idea how well that would go. Defenses and DCs should be simple enough, but monster hp vs PC damage is where I feel I'll stumble if I rip out the "1/2 level bonus".

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No kidding! I've been working on my Points of Light game for almost three years now, and it is so much work! I've gone through varying phases of attention and energy. Currently I am feverishly scrabbling to get it playable -- not four-tiers complete, but playable -- by the new year so I can start playtesting. I feel possessed by some demon, frankly, and I think I'm going to be pretty frelling burned out by New Year's. But it'll be worth it.

I know the feeling. I have enthusiasm, but right now every time I sit down its like, "Oh, I have to do about 100 more boons and associated powers, snore...". I guess I get through one every couple days, but at this rate it will be a good while before things REALLY become playable.

I've made some innovations here and there, and taken a couple of big risks. I came up with the idea condition tracks -- independently of another 4e fan who came up with the same thing, it seems! -- which have allowed me to really define the controller role, and retool minion/elite/etc. monsters. Are condition tracks a case of great minds thinking alike, or much mold growing on the same stale toast? Can't wait to find out!

Not to detract from your originality, don't those kind of hark back to SWSE? I've never played or read SWSE, but I recall in all the great debates around 2008 there was a lot of talk about "why doesn't 4e use the SWSE condition track?" Of course yours may be architected way differently...

In my own game I chose to de-emphasize the mechanics surrounding conditions. They still exist, and are used much more consistently than in 4e, but most conditions end at the end of the target's turn, and all others are either concentration or end of encounter. I don't even HAVE saving throws per-se (although the idea of a check used to avoid or negate something is available as a mechanic simply by virtue of the d20 core).

I've written enough low-level powers to create a variety of stock character concepts -- the equivalent of a few 1st level at-will/encounter/daily powers for each class in 4e -- and then said "After 5th level, your character has learned everything he/she can from his/her apprenticeship and is coming into his/her own. Here are some guidelines for you and your GM to come up with his/her own unique signature powers..." Did I do this because gamers writing their own material is more fun than everyone using one writer's ideas, or because writing a lot of powers is hard work for a single writer? Yes.

Hehe, yeah, I've been tempted to basically do the same thing, "Hey, guys, once you hit level 6 you're on your own, just follow the yellow brick road!" I still need to build a lot more powers and things even so, just to establish all the various design patterns, and then test them all enough to see what might be problematic and tweak it, otherwise what people layer on top may be pretty whacked.

And lastly, I've created a new default setting, where the theme matches the new ruleset. Mortalkind has just escaped from the thrall of various Tyrants -- dragons, giants, puissants, and other monsters -- and is facing a new and uncertain future of both danger and promise. Still very much a D&D sort of place, but hopefully with a memorable twist.

Setting-wise I can rely on my existing homebrewed D&D setting, which has history of play going back into the 1970's, so lots of crazy material. I've been reinterpreting a bunch of it into a more 'mythological' tone, as well as adding emphasis to the themes that it shares with 4e cosmology, mainly the conflict between chaos and order.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Glad you asked, since I've started a rather meaty 4e homebrew project focused mostly on punching up "Roleplay" and making each class feel a little bit more unique with actual class feature choices.

Using the Essential's Mage as inspiration, I've decided to create a similar "Apprentice/Adept/Expert" style of class features for all the original classes. Some of it I'll freely take from Essentials (Mage and Warpriest are being folded into their parent classes, and their granted features are coming along) while other parts I'm going to take from Feats, which really need a good culling anyway. I'm going to pull some from 5e as well. The main "goal" is for each character to gain two "Novice" features, two adept, and one expert, mostly so there is actual progression of class features in heroic tier.

I'm also working on a simple Skill Point system; characters gain two "points" at levels 2/6/10 to invest in their skills. Each point in a skill unlocks (for free) the skill powers that correspond to that level. I'll be fleshing out some of them so they are generally equal, as well as adding a few new skills (again mostly pulled form 5e) to help round out the list.

Finally, I'm adding "Ritual Points" as a sort of Vancian system for 4e rituals. It should encourage them to be used more often. I'm rewriting a chunk of the ritual list, grabbing spells from other editions to round it out. I've not determined if I'll keep it tied to 4e levels or make it have the more traditional levels 1-9.


My "future" goal is to tweak 4e math down closer to 5e's Bounded Accuracy, though I have no idea how well that would go. Defenses and DCs should be simple enough, but monster hp vs PC damage is where I feel I'll stumble if I rip out the "1/2 level bonus".

Cool! I guess the only real question about having graduated acquisition of class features is if that leads to "you aren't a real X until you get to level N" which I know was an issue for a lot of 3.x players. Its not a HUGE issue in 5e though. The quick advancement at levels 1 and 2 sort of softens the edge and lends itself to exactly that interpretation, you don't really acquire your class until level 3, before that you're just 'getting there'.

 

[Igwilly]

Well, I have been working on my own RPG system. Right now I stopped to DM other stuff, but otherwise, slowly getting there!
It’s not a 4e-clone, however. It takes ideas from various editions, and I have my own spin in the game – which will demand some decent amount of creativity. It looks good, though.

 

[Cyvris]

Cool! I guess the only real question about having graduated acquisition of class features is if that leads to "you aren't a real X until you get to level N" which I know was an issue for a lot of 3.x players. Its not a HUGE issue in 5e though. The quick advancement at levels 1 and 2 sort of softens the edge and lends itself to exactly that interpretation, you don't really acquire your class until level 3, before that you're just 'getting there'.

I'm basically welding this onto the already existing classes. Your character still gains everything they'd normally get as a level one 4e PC (Fighter Talent or Druid Primal Aspect), but now also has additional features to pick from at later levels (probably each even level). There would be three "tiers" Novice(2/4), Adept(6/8), and Expert(10), with three-four choices in each tier. In total, characters gain two from Novice and Adept and one from Expert. It's very similar to the Mage's magic schools, with some just being a free choice from a list of Class Feats (Fighter Weapon Feats, Druid Forms etc), while I'll create a few new ones as well (Armored Hide-Guardian Druid gets scaling +1 to AC in Beastform). The idea is to try and give a little wider diversity to classes, so not every Fighter is the same, while also clearing out 4e's Feat bloat of things that really should have been class features in the first place.

5e has some glaring flaws, looking at you Melee characters back to MBAs, but overall I like how it approached class features, feats, and the lower "math". I want to bring at least some of that to 4e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm basically welding this onto the already existing classes. Your character still gains everything they'd normally get as a level one 4e PC (Fighter Talent or Druid Primal Aspect), but now also has additional features to pick from at later levels (probably each even level). There would be three "tiers" Novice(2/4), Adept(6/8), and Expert(10), with three-four choices in each tier. In total, characters gain two from Novice and Adept and one from Expert. It's very similar to the Mage's magic schools, with some just being a free choice from a list of Class Feats (Fighter Weapon Feats, Druid Forms etc), while I'll create a few new ones as well (Armored Hide-Guardian Druid gets scaling +1 to AC in Beastform). The idea is to try and give a little wider diversity to classes, so not every Fighter is the same, while also clearing out 4e's Feat bloat of things that really should have been class features in the first place.

5e has some glaring flaws, looking at you Melee characters back to MBAs, but overall I like how it approached class features, feats, and the lower "math". I want to bring at least some of that to 4e.

So I assume then that themes would be out? My only concern is trying cut back on the sheer NUMBER of things that characters get, its rather daunting!