Are you serious? Have you looked at a 4e stat block?Again... where in 4e is this stated? This is one of those things I've seen you claim but I don't remember actually reading this in the 4e rulebooks. If it's truly a principle of 4e, and with 4e being regarded as one of the most transparent of all editions... it shouldn't be hard to point out where this is actually stated in the rules.
It has defences. Hit points. Saves. Action points (which for players can also be used in skill challenges, but can't be used in that way by NPCs/monsters because in a skill challenge the GM does not declare actions). Attacks. Movement abilities demarcated in squares.
It's a suite of resources for adjudicating combat.
Here is part of the "devil" entry in the MM (p 60): "Devils torment and consume captured souls to fuel the mightiest of their infernal works, including evil constructs and terrible invocations." Do you really think that, by mistake or editorial fiat, the torment and consume captures soul ability, and the construct infernal work and terrible invocation powers, were left off the devil statblocks?
Those sorts of abilities are not matters for combat resolution. Hence they are not part of statblocks.
And conversely: two of the example skill challenge ideas in the DMG are social encounters (Negotiating with the Duke, and Interrogating the Prisoner). Neither involves reference to any NPC stat block; each involves only the players making checks, against DCs set by the GM not by reference to a stat block but by reference to the DC-by-level table.
The DMG (p 36) says
Before a combat encounter begins, you should have some information at hand. . . . [including s]tatistics for the opponents in the encounter.
Page 72 of the DMG, describing skill challenges under the chapter heading "Noncombat encounters" doesn't contain that advice (because you don't need NPC/monster stat blocks to run a skill challenge). Instead, it says
[indent[The difference between a combat challenge and a skill challenge isn’t the presence or absence of physical risk, nor the presence or absence of attack rolls and damage rolls and power use. The difference is in how the encounter treats PC actions.[/indent]
It then goes on to explain that difference in resolution procedures: that only the players make checks; that the DCs for those checks are set from a chart (not from a stat block); that successes and failures on the checks are tracked, and when certain thresholds are reached in respect of one or the other the challenge is done.
If the GM wants the matter to be resolved by a single ritual, or a single Nature check (probably more plausible for a paragon druid than a 1st level wizard), of course that's his/her prerogative. From the DMG, p 72:Why is this a skill challenge? There's a 1st level 4e ritual called purify water... wouldn't that be the resolution procedure for the PC's? Why do you claim it's a skill challenge? Of course now we need to answer how much water a black dragon can corrupt since the ritual can purify a specific volume of water determined by the skill check
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But the DM determining how much water a black dragon can corrupt isn't just fiction... it has mechanical ramifications. Too much and purify water becomes useless as a mechanism to counter it. How does the DM determine the mechanics of it if it's not DM fiat?
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you're claiming the only resolution system for opposing the magical deeds of monsters in 4e is the SC? That seems... wrong, right away I can point to rituals as a way to resolve them... possibly class abilities, utility powers, magic items... or even a singular skill roll.
It’s not a skill challenge every time you call for a skill check. When an obstacle takes only one roll to resolve, it’s not a
challenge. One Diplomacy check to haggle with the merchant, one Athletics check to climb out of the pit trap, one Religion check to figure out whose sacred tome contains the parable - none of these constitutes a skill challenge.
challenge. One Diplomacy check to haggle with the merchant, one Athletics check to climb out of the pit trap, one Religion check to figure out whose sacred tome contains the parable - none of these constitutes a skill challenge.
I'm assuming that the dragon's corruption of the water is a matter of some significance in the game, and hence that reversing and preventing it into the future is going to involve more than a simple check. If it's just something being done with a purify water ritual, then all that is at stake is the amount of components consumed.
Also from the DMG, p 74:
It’s also a good idea to think about other options the characters might exercise and how these might influence the course of the challenge. Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total.
The use of a Purify Water ritual is the sort of thing that would contribute to a ritual to cleanse a pool corrupted by a black dragon. But the volume of corrupted water is going to depend on the size of the pool, not on the amount of water the black dragon can corrupt per day: given the tendency of contaminants to diffuse through water, either the whole pool is going to need cleansing or none of it is. The size of the pool is something for the GM to decide, and is obviously relevant to the role that Purify Water can play (eg if it's a small pond and the caster can cleanse all of it, then that looks like an automatic success to me, and subsequent checks would be aimed at ensuring no repetition of the contamination by the dragon; if it's a big pond and the caster can only clean a little part of it, then that would be the sort of thing to give someone else a +2 on their next check, eg to summon or encourage water spirits to diffuse from the purified part into the rest of the pond, or as a focus for a prayer to extend the purity through the rest of the pond, or even as a safe part of the water for someone to stand in while they dig a trench or a sump for the contaminated water to drain into).
In 4e, there are no mechanics for how much water a dragon can corrupt. Look at the black dragon entry - they're not there. Where do you think they are hidden?the mechanics of how much water a black dragon can corrupt affect the mechanics for how to purify it. You seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to SC's but there are other resolution systems 4e uses.
Also, as I've said, the answer to the question "How much water do we need to cleanse" is found by looking to the size of the pond, not the rate at which the dragon can introduce contaminants.
As for "tunnel vision", I am just restating the basic principles of the game (PHB pp 258-59):
Encounters are where the action of the D&D game takes place, whether the encounter is a life-or-death battle against monstrous foes, a high-stakes negotiation with a duke and his vizier, or a death-defying climb up the Cliffs of Desolation.
. . .
Two kinds of encounters occur in most D&D adventures: combat and noncombat encounters. . . . Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers, and your own wits (not your character’s), although sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well. Such encounters include dealing with traps and hazards, solving puzzles, and a broad category of situations called skill challenges.
. . .
Two kinds of encounters occur in most D&D adventures: combat and noncombat encounters. . . . Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers, and your own wits (not your character’s), although sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well. Such encounters include dealing with traps and hazards, solving puzzles, and a broad category of situations called skill challenges.
The basic structure of the game, and its resolution system, is not kept secret! It's laid out - corresponding to this passage in the PHB are the two chapters of the DMG - "combat encounters" and "noncombat encounters" that I've already mentioned.
There is also another component to the game - exploration - which is described in the PHB (pp 9-9):
Between encounters, your characters explore the world. You make decisions about which way your character travels and what he or she tries to do next. Exploration is the give-and-take of you telling the DM what you want your character to do, and the DM telling you what happens when your character does it. . . .
Decisions you make as you explore eventually lead to encounters. . . .
While exploring a dungeon or other adventure location, you might try to do any of the following actions:
* Move down a hallway, follow a passage, cross a room
* Listen by a door to determine if you hear anything on the other side
* Try a door to see if it’s locked
* Break down a locked door
* Search a room for treasure
* Pull levers, push statues or furnishings around
* Pick the lock of a treasure chest
* Jury-rig a trap
The Dungeon Master decides whether or not something you try actually works. Some actions automatically succeed (you can move around without trouble, usually), some require one or more die rolls, called checks (breaking down a locked door, for example), and some simply can’t succeed.
Decisions you make as you explore eventually lead to encounters. . . .
While exploring a dungeon or other adventure location, you might try to do any of the following actions:
* Move down a hallway, follow a passage, cross a room
* Listen by a door to determine if you hear anything on the other side
* Try a door to see if it’s locked
* Break down a locked door
* Search a room for treasure
* Pull levers, push statues or furnishings around
* Pick the lock of a treasure chest
* Jury-rig a trap
The Dungeon Master decides whether or not something you try actually works. Some actions automatically succeed (you can move around without trouble, usually), some require one or more die rolls, called checks (breaking down a locked door, for example), and some simply can’t succeed.
If purifying the polluted pond is simply an instance of exploration and not a focus of the game, that is the context in which a single ritual, or (say) a single Nature check, might be sufficient. As I posted, I am assuming that we think the pond is more interesting than that and hence will be made a bigger focus of play - otherwise we wouldn't be worried about the ability of the black dragon to do it!
I believe that 4e is the only edition of D&D to have assumed that magical effects generated by NPCs and monsters outside the context of a combat encounter will be established purely via GM narration, rather than by reference to spells, spell-like abilities, special qualities and the like.creating through fiat is not a characteristic only 4e possess
I don't know where "meaningful decisions on the players' part" has suddenly sprung from, like a rabbit from a hat; but I can't easily conceive of a circumstance in which the players knowing the mechanics for corrupt water would give enable them to take meaningful decisions that aren't available if they know that the corrupted pond is a certain size, and that there is a skill challenge on to try and cleanse it.the mechanics to make those resolution systems meaningful or to give them grounding to help make them part of meaningful decisions on the players part is lacking for the monsters and left fully in the hands of DM fiat.
I have never run a "cleanse the corrupted pond" skill challenge, but here is an actual play report of a skill challenge to cleanse a fey apple grove of a haunting demon:
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[/sblock]Notice that the stat-block of the glabrezu doesn't factor into the resolution of the skill challenge, because it is not a combat encounter. Notice also that no mechanics are needed to determine the glabrezu's ability to stop the apple trees from fruiting: this is simply a piece of fiction narrated by me as GM, having read (MM, p 55) that:When the Tower shifted into the Feywild the PCs (following the hag's directions) headed north. The invoker summoned them phantom steeds, in the form of giant flying dragonflies. (When the player mentioned the dragonflies, I suggested rainbow gossamer wings, but he wouldn't come at that. So the Feywild charged him 100 gp rather than 70 gp worth of residuum for the ritual.)
As the PCs were flying along, they saw an eladrin hunting party, with a displacer beast pack, below them in the woods. As they were turning about to investigate more closely, the eladrin feyknight whistled and called the drow sorcerer's dragonfly to him. (The mysterious magic of the Feywild!) Pleasantries, which included the drow prominently displaying his symbol of Corellon to prove his good faith (he is a member of a small drow cult of Corellon worshippers who seek to end the influence of Lolth and undo the sundering of the elves), revealed that the eladrin was a Marcher Baron, Lord Distan. (The PCs and players recognised that name, as someone who had kicked the hags out of their former home 20-odd years ago, leading them to taking up residence in their Tower instead.)
He invited them back to his home, where it quickly became clear that he didn't really want their company, but rather wanted them to help him with a problem - he was expecting a visit in a few days from his Duke overlord, but his special apple grove was not fruiting as it normally would.
This was an adaptation to 4e mechanics and backstory of the scenario "The Demon of the Red Grove" in Robin Laws's HeroWars Narrator's Book. The reason for the trees in the grove not fruiting is that a demon, long bound there, has recently been awoken but remains trapped within the grove, and hence is cursing the trees. Mechanically, this was resolved as a skill challenge. First the PCs had to endure the demon's three cries of "Go Away!" (group checks, with failing PCs taking psychic damage - the sorcerer, who is also a multi-class bard, was the most flamboyant here, spending his Rhythm of Disorientation encounter power to open up the use of Diplomacy for the check, which in the fiction was him singing a song of apples blossoming in the summer). Somewhere during this process the cleric-ranger and invoker both succeeded at Perception checks and could hear the high-pitched whistling of a song bird. And the sorcerer's Arcana check revealed the presence of the demon - an ancient and mighty glabrezu (level 27 solo, as I told the players in order to try to convey the requisite sense of gravity).
At this point I thought they would attack the demon, but they decided to speak to it first, to find out how it had got there and what it was doing there. With successful Diplomacy checks they learned that it had been summoned long ago during the Dawn War ("When Miska's armies were marshalling on the Plain of a Thousand Portals") by a powerful drow who had come into the Abyss, in order to ambush a strong and cruel sorceress. But the sorceress had defeated it and trapped it in the grove. When they asked it the name of the sorceress, it replied that the name had been erased from its memory - at which point the player of the paladin of the Raven Queen worked out the sorceress was his mistress, and the player of the drow worked out that the ambusher must be Lolth. They also learned that it had been woken a year ago by an NPC wizard who was, earlier in the campaign, a nemesis of the PCs, as part of his attempts to learn the true name of the Raven Queen.
They then debated whether to bargain with it, but doubted its promise that "My word is my bond." The player of the invoker decided to use the Adjure ritual - that works on immortal creatures only, so he used it to try and change the immortal magic of the Raven Queen that was binding the demon. Instead of being trapped in the grove, they wanted the demon to instead go forth and fight frost giants and formorians. A roll was made (with help from the paladin, the ranger-cleric (who is also a Raven Queen devotee) and the sorcerer (who hates the giants because they serve evil primordials and he serves Chan, a "good" archomental). Unfortunately the roll was not very high, which meant that even with the bonuses it didn't achieve a full success, so the demon is bound for a week only - and hence was quite cheerful as it flew off to the north to beat up on frost giants.
Overall I was quite happy with the Red Grove scenario as a good introduction to the Feywild, and establishing some suitable flavour within the context of the broader campaign backstory. I had first made notes for running this scenario 3 or more years ago, back when the PCs were upper Heroic/low Paragon, and was glad to finally be able to use it (though with everything levelled up a bit!). Framing the PCs into the situation in the first place - via the eladrin encounter - was a bit harder than I would normally do things, but I knew that the players would be interested in the Lolt/Raven Queen backstory. And the outcome in relation to the demon was unexpected and certainly gives material for future developments. I haven't yet decided how to handle the consequences of the demon becoming free after a week, but it is potentially quite amusing.
When a demon as wicked as a glabrezu lingers too long in the world, its corruption spreads. Crops are stunted, animals die, people sicken, and the sky itself seems to darken. Only when the demon is driven off or slain is the natural order restored.
I didn't need a stat block to tell me how to narrate a barren apple grove. I just narrated it. And when the PCs went to undo it, I didn't need a stat block for that either; I used the DC-by-level chart in accordance with the standard skill challenge procedures.