Martial Practice : Blood Demand

It could in some cases almost be explicitly connected ie you use the artifact to cut your palm and it bonds with you just as those allies, its about establishing allegiance not ownership... yeh ;) I see what you mean wrt to sentient weapons

Yeah, those are good visuals, blood, some kind of sacrifice, appeal to some kind of patron (the Lady of the Lake), etc.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The lady of the lake is sometimes associated with recovery of Excaliber .... Arthur does something to lose worthiness and he has to reassert through his patron.
 

The lady of the lake is sometimes associated with recovery of Excaliber .... Arthur does something to lose worthiness and he has to reassert through his patron.

Yeah, there are various stories. I don't recall the details of the origins of the whole thing anymore, but I think the Lady in the Lake story is the original one, and the 'Sword in the Stone' story was borrowed from another myth cycle. Note that the sword in the stone isn't stated to be Excalibur by Mallory IIRC. I think the 'reconsecration' story is a modern attempt to reconcile the various pieces better more than anything classic, but I'm not really sure. The origins of a lot of the bits are pretty obscure, and OLD.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, there are various stories. I don't recall the details of the origins of the whole thing anymore, but I think the Lady in the Lake story is the original one, and the 'Sword in the Stone' story was borrowed from another myth cycle. Note that the sword in the stone isn't stated to be Excalibur by Mallory IIRC. I think the 'reconsecration' story is a modern attempt to reconcile the various pieces better more than anything classic, but I'm not really sure. The origins of a lot of the bits are pretty obscure, and OLD.
OLD is an understatement pre-Christian in origin where the holy grail was the Cauldron of the goddess in Celtic myth from which you draw the dead forth to life... and he was accompanied by an irishman - possibly named Lugh and translated to welsh Luc Lewanleawc translated to Lancelot DuLac (much much later) who accompanied him into the other world to recover it.... very old.
 

pemerton

Legend
Well, D&D's magic system is rooted in being a reward mechanism. Obviously if every time you found an item you couldn't use it, then it wouldn't be a very useful subsystem.

<snip>

I'd say 4e is pretty well suited to dealing with this stuff.
I think one reason 4e is well-suited to it is because magic items in 4e are - by default - not really rewards at all (despite the misleading heading in the DMG). The "parcel" system means that treasure is just another element of PC build, that is more granular and on a slightly different track from the stuff described in the PHB.

This makes it easy to have treasures that are special in one way or another to a particular character. In my main 4e game, one of the PCs has been collecting the Rod of Seven Parts from 2nd level. Another PC at one stage had a dragon's tooth made into a Wyrmtooth dagger'; and the same PC found a cache of items that had belonged to an ancient member of the drow cult that he belongs to ("The Order of the Bat", a group of Corellon-worshipping drow dedicated to ending the sundering of the elves).

In a reward-based system you can't assume the magic items will be found; nor by whom. But in a "parcel"-based system both those assumptions can be made without any problems.

the classic D&D artifacts, like the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords, which appears now and then to buttress some dwarven community against the forces of arrayed against it. Generally these kinds of items are assumed to be 'story items' and not things that are common or, even in 4e, attained by PCs as normal rewards.
As much as possible, I like all the items in my 4e game to be "story items", in the sense that there is some connection between the item and its owner that goes deeper than just "I took this from the body of a dead bugbear". I use artefacts the same way too (and assign them levels and cost them against the treasure parcel budget). I haven't used artefacts as items that are fundamentally under GM rather than player control.

I really like the whole concept of 'concordance', though I am not sure the mechanics were all that workable.
I have used Concordance, although dropping the gain per level to +1 rather than +1d10, because I'm not using artefacts as GM-controlled temporary things. It's not the most exciting thing of all time, but the wielder of the Rod did once lose a bit of functionality after beating up on some devils (immortals), and since then has been conscious that the Rod doesn't like him fighting such beings, and so he tends not to be the one to strike the first blow in such contexts.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Piles of XP for being so 4e prolific as of late and stirring up conversation!

Quite honestly i feel that the innovations and values of 4e are something worth developing further and that 5e is not a natural progression but a conservatives regression and we have some good minds here, if I can jolt us in to action with creative sparks that can only be a good thing.
 

I think one reason 4e is well-suited to it is because magic items in 4e are - by default - not really rewards at all (despite the misleading heading in the DMG). The "parcel" system means that treasure is just another element of PC build, that is more granular and on a slightly different track from the stuff described in the PHB.

This makes it easy to have treasures that are special in one way or another to a particular character. In my main 4e game, one of the PCs has been collecting the Rod of Seven Parts from 2nd level. Another PC at one stage had a dragon's tooth made into a Wyrmtooth dagger'; and the same PC found a cache of items that had belonged to an ancient member of the drow cult that he belongs to ("The Order of the Bat", a group of Corellon-worshipping drow dedicated to ending the sundering of the elves).

In a reward-based system you can't assume the magic items will be found; nor by whom. But in a "parcel"-based system both those assumptions can be made without any problems.

Sure. I understand the reasons for doing this, it does give the GM a 'channel' through which he and the players can access a more free-form build subsystem. It has a few other characteristics as well. There's 'planned obsolescence' where if you give out a 'big 3' item and its not a great idea at least it will fade to irrelevance over time (unless you use inherent bonuses, something I don't actually do, though it has its plus side). It can act as a signaling system for players to indicate the direction they would like things to go in. It can provide the GM with an easy way to give the players fairly meaningful choices (go for the holy avenger or go for the dragon slayer).

I think it has a severe downside as well though. By replacing the risk/reward ratio system of older D&D the game has lost its aspect of 'taking a gamble'. Even if you run a game as a sandbox, the players know what treasure they'll get. You don't have that sort of option anymore to say "well, you COULD go down the stairs to level 2, the treasures are bigger..." so to speak.

This is one reason why minor boons (which includes most ordinary treasure) are unregulated in HoML. Items are strictly inverse regulated, you get an item (major boon) you go up a level, there's tautologically one per level, but not things like 'gold pieces', or consumables. So an item will first of all always be acquired through some narrative activity (I guess the GM could give it away, but that would be odd as its tantamount to just giving away a level). However, since I made the categorization of things much less strict there is a lot more leeway in terms of how this sort of thing comes about in the story. Things CAN become rewards again, and items are not 'levelized' either, so there's no notion that you 'only get things that are so good at level 1', which was another aspect that killed the risk-taking element of the game.

Admittedly, gambling with your character is not always very compatible with developing the character and story; it can be though. I mean, many heroes take a big risk, its a part of the job, and its good if there's a big material reward there, something to signify that.

4e's artifacts definitely serve that purpose, but sometimes they're not fine-grained enough, or don't really fit with the story exactly. I was a little unhappy with the lack of easy ways to change that approach with 4e, its very set on its parcel idea. Because it crosses over into the player's side of the table in a very explicit way its hard for GMs to mess with it.
 

Quite honestly i feel that the innovations and values of 4e are something worth developing further and that 5e is not a natural progression but a conservatives regression and we have some good minds here, if I can jolt us in to action with creative sparks that can only be a good thing.

Well, I've built up a vast trove of notes and such based on different conversations I've had with people. Not all those ideas can fit into one game, and some of the things I've done with mine are a little idiosyncratic and purely my own (my own mistakes?) but in some fashion a lot of it ends up in some form getting written up.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, I've built up a vast trove of notes and such based on different conversations I've had with people. Not all those ideas can fit into one game, and some of the things I've done with mine are a little idiosyncratic and purely my own (my own mistakes?) but in some fashion a lot of it ends up in some form getting written up.

I think where any of that can obviously seen as a evolving from 4e it might be worthwhile to share.... we have editor brains, here and mathematical brains, and creatives and so on...
 

Remove ads

Top