D&D 5E Blade Pact Warlocks and Conventional Wisdom

[Corwin]

And promptly have the entire table complain that he just isn't very effective.

Have fun playing with those kinds of folks, I guess. I wouldn't. I'd instead suggest to those hand-wringers that there are systems/editions far better suited to the kind of playstyle they seem inclined to favor. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that the other players at the table are just grousing because they want you to make different choices? Or that you character is actually causing them to fail at the average adventuring day? Because those are two totally different things.

 

[RonLugge]

Have fun playing with those kinds of folks, I guess. I wouldn't. I'd instead suggest to those hand-wringers that there are systems/editions far better suited to the kind of playstyle they seem inclined to favor. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that the other players at the table are just grousing because they want you to make different choices? Or that you character is actually causing them to fail at the average adventuring day? Because those are two totally different things.

Issue is that in my area, it's very difficult to find games outside of AL. And AL, of late, has been taken over by far too many DMs who think if they aren't pushing the party to the breaking point, they aren't doing their job. And if a character isn't 'effective', it isn't good. So my mindset is warped sometimes.

 

[Corwin]

Issue is that in my area, it's very difficult to find games outside of AL. And AL, of late, has been taken over by far too many DMs who think if they aren't pushing the party to the breaking point, they aren't doing their job.

Two options. 1) DM an AL session yourself so people can see a different way of doing things. 2) Pull aside a handful of like-minded individuals and do something on your own more akin to your preferred playstyle. These are both tried, true and tested methods of helping get things to change more to your liking.

And if a character isn't 'effective', it isn't good. So my mindset is warped sometimes.

But what is 'effective'? Defined how? Again, my second paragraph had touched on two distinct issues. Is playing a bladelock, made the way you want (as opposed to peer pressure), getting the party killed every session? Or are you just getting harangued by others at the table for playing differently than they would?

We are still talking AL play, right? I can't conceive of how AL play is failing to accommodate a less than optimized bladelock. Short of the DMs totally changing the pre-written adventures, like doubling the number of foes encountered. Stuff like that. I mean, if the DMs are running their games in bad faith, there's really not much you can do anyway.

 

[RonLugge]

Two options. 1) DM an AL session yourself so people can see a different way of doing things. 2) Pull aside a handful of like-minded individuals and do something on your own more akin to your preferred playstyle. These are both tried, true and tested methods of helping get things to change more to your liking.

My original post got eaten, but in it I commented I tend to be one of the area's go-to DMs. So much so I need a season or two's worth of break, and a chance to freakin' PLAY FOR FREAKIN' ONCE!

Unfortunately, the underlying issue is 'what makes D&D fun?' Some people like the exploration pillar (I don't), some people like the roleplay pillar (it's my primary joy!), and some people love the combat pillar (I do enjoy). When the population base of an area tends towards one of the pillars primarily (combat), things get... distorted.

But what is 'effective'? Defined how? Again, my second paragraph had touched on two distinct issues. Is playing a bladelock, made the way you want (as opposed to peer pressure), getting the party killed every session? Or are you just getting harangued by others at the table for playing differently than they would?

We are still talking AL play, right? I can't conceive of how AL play is failing to accommodate a less than optimized bladelock. Short of the DMs totally changing the pre-written adventures, like doubling the number of foes encountered. Stuff like that. I mean, if the DMs are running their games in bad faith, there's really not much you can do anyway.

I'm going to have to wave off any further public discussion on this subject. It would be inappropriate to say some things in a public venue.

All in all, the important point here is that I need to learn to keep a better divider in my mind between 'real' 5E play and AL play in my local area; sometimes I fail at that.

 

[Corwin]

Unfortunately, the underlying issue is 'what makes D&D fun?' Some people like the exploration pillar (I don't), some people like the roleplay pillar (it's my primary joy!), and some people love the combat pillar (I do enjoy). When the population base of an area tends towards one of the pillars primarily (combat), things get... distorted.

And I'm saying that, especially in an AL adventures environment, a non-optimized bladelock can handle any of that just fine. Even a combat pillar focused environment. 5e just isn't that delicate, nor finely tuned towards optimization. It just isn't. IMX, it takes concerted, deliberate effort, both during character creation, and at the table, to play a character that fails to make it through the average adventuring day. Sure, TPKs still happen. But I've yet to see one based solely on one player having a character that ruined it for everyone because of how it was built.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They are still a Full caster though, meaning that their Limited casting should, if they need a change, be balanced off by slightly greater Melee capabilities, not melee capabilities equal to the Fighter. I could maybe see giving them a free Extra attack at 5th, then an Invocation (Bladelock Prerequisite) at 11th for a third attack, which would put them solidly in the middle ground. Though, that might be a bit much still.

As it stands, the Valor bard has the best support capabilities, and healing, so they should swing lower on damage and tankiness than the other two. Bladesinger gets massive staying power, so that should get brought down, or they should lose a bit on damage since they get all the blasty and utility spells of the Wizard anyway. That leaves Bladelock with the least Spellcasting flexibility, so giving them higher melee abilities than the other two makes sense, IMO.

I'd be fine with Invocations bringing the Warlock close to the fighter. If spells can bring them the rest of the way to where they stand right alongside Fighters and Rogues as weapon users, great. Because then they are using class features and spell slots to accomplish it, which makes sense from a balance perspective, and fits the concept of a magical weapon fighter.

 

[Warpiglet]

And I'm saying that, especially in an AL adventures environment, a non-optimized bladelock can handle any of that just fine. Even a combat pillar focused environment. 5e just isn't that delicate, nor finely tuned towards optimization. It just isn't. IMX, it takes concerted, deliberate effort, both during character creation, and at the table, to play a character that fails to make it through the average adventuring day. Sure, TPKs still happen. But I've yet to see one based solely on one player having a character that ruined it for everyone because of how it was built.

Its almost like saying a player should imagine a cool character and have fun playing their imaginary hero.

I have not met anyone who has become bored by D&D when they approach it this way. Frankly, my friends have not spent as much time reading this or other forums, sage advice articles or any other media. They just play and it works fine.

 

[RonLugge]

And I'm saying that, especially in an AL adventures environment, a non-optimized bladelock can handle any of that just fine. Even a combat pillar focused environment. 5e just isn't that delicate, nor finely tuned towards optimization. It just isn't. IMX, it takes concerted, deliberate effort, both during character creation, and at the table, to play a character that fails to make it through the average adventuring day. Sure, TPKs still happen. But I've yet to see one based solely on one player having a character that ruined it for everyone because of how it was built.

5E isn't that delicate, but some DMs make it that way anyway. Sometimes because they don't understand what they're doing when they 'fix' an 'overly-easy' encounter, sometimes because they just like it that way. And that experience can... 'stain' the players for a long time, taking conscious application and thought, and often outside viewpoints, to recognize when the reaction is influencing them. Almost like a kind of "Gamer's PTSD".

 

[Corwin]

Its almost like saying a player should imagine a cool character and have fun playing their imaginary hero.

Totally. I think 5e might actually be the first edition of D&D to accomplish this to such a noteworthy extent.

I have not met anyone who has become bored by D&D when they approach it this way. Frankly, my friends have not spent as much time reading this or other forums, sage advice articles or any other media. They just play and it works fine.

Agreed. I have a few friends that still try to play 5e like its 3.x or 4e. I'm hoping someday that wears off and they can enjoy this edition for what it is.

 

[Corwin]

5E isn't that delicate, but some DMs make it that way anyway. Sometimes because they don't understand what they're doing when they 'fix' an 'overly-easy' encounter, sometimes because they just like it that way. And that experience can... 'stain' the players for a long time, taking conscious application and thought, and often outside viewpoints, to recognize when the reaction is influencing them. Almost like a kind of "Gamer's PTSD".

Wow. All the angst and such you must be dealing with. I feel for you and your situation. Truly.

But can we step back for a second and reconsider the conversation. The discussion at large isn't about some individual, dysfunctional group, where masochistic DMs revel in destroying the party unless they make the most optimal of characters. We are talking about bladelocks in general. And how they are okay. Even when not optimized. Because 5e. Not because you're particular AL experiences of 5e.