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D&D 5E Blade Pact Warlocks and Conventional Wisdom

Lanliss

Explorer
The thing is, I can actually dig that, I can agree with it... in theory. The problem is, in practice the blade pact just about screams 'make me a gish!' -- and then can't quite support itself in that role. It's got a lot of the tools, just... it's too much weight for something so small to carry, and it has to divest it off into other places, cascading outward in a way that doesn't quite add up. Honestly, just letting the pact weapon itself use charisma bonus as your stat modifier would get you a long way there.



That might actually work, except I don't think the pacts themselves have enough weight to be turned into full archetypes. Honestly, the real 'man out' here is blade pact, it's the only one that screams out 'archetype' to me, while the others really are just minor variations. But I could be wrong, and I'd love to see what you turn out.

Chainlock would work best pulling from the Beastmaster, except with more strange familiars than the Ranger gets, I think. A familiar that scales like a Beast companion, with a little bit of combat ability.

Tome lock would be a pure caster, arguably the "Base" Warlock. Ritual casting, maybe an upgrade to Hex at later levels.

Blade speaks for itself, just move it's Invocations to being free as someone else mentioned.

Damn my short attention span, I already got sidetracked off of my Cleric rework by a dungeon idea I have, as well as my Druid rework. I need to set myself a schedule, or I am never going to finish any of these ideas I keep having...
 

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Warpiglet

Adventurer
The complaints about Blade'locks are not that they are not as good as a fighter, but not as good as other 'locks. They are 'less survivable by strapping some melee option on them' by virtue that they are now expected to mix it up in melee more than your average lock. And it requires quite a bit of system mastery (Choose the right race and/or optional feats, choose fiend patron for temp HP, make Dex a priority b/c your AC is poor--you thought Armor of Shadows would do the trick--or the ever popular 'take your first level in fighter') to 'realize' the vision offered by the sub-class.

I've constantly heard in defense of Blade'locks that they aren't supposed to be front line bruisers, and they need to be mobile skirmishers that only engage in melee when the opportunity it right, or when forced to, etc. Okay, fair enough, but at that point, why not just play another 'lock that has more synergy with class abilities and could do at least some of that for far less investment? Why don't they have any features (beyond the two invocations) that synergize well with the gish role? Yes, they have spells, but even the Valor Bard gets Battle Magic, and the Eldritch Knight has the War Magic features in addition to spell casting. I would posit that the recent UA Sword Patron is at least a partial do over for the blade'lock. While admittedly not fine tuned (Not to mention a kind of silly patron), look at all the gish-enhancing abilities it gets right off the bat to help it fulfill that role.
I disagree with one main point:

Assume you are in a party of 3-5 and there is A lot of close quarter fighting (e.g. Dungeon). Are you SURE that a time pact or chain pact is "better" when there is a lot of combat? I am not! Recall to get anything more than 3 cantrips Tome needs to use an invocation. Thus, one invocation for pact is assumed for all three. When fighting gets close, considering disadvantage, I think there is an argument pact is superior. Actually superior to the other pacts...any of the the three could armor up. I still would take blade pact at will damage.

If we say we are at distance, blade could still take EV invocation(s)...

I would like them to have more, but disagree with the thesis they are inferior. I would prefer hexblade if offered...but current raw I think blade pact is never inferior in combat...or survival value.

I know! Everyone says different! That's why I made a thread to discuss the issue.
 

Barolo

First Post
1. Since his best Weapon Proficiencies are STR based (A.K.A non Finesse) and he needs at least 15 STR to wear a Full Plate without speed penalty I classify him as a STR based class.

2. Speed Penalty, I believe your archer don't have 15 STR

3. Since most of the Warlock's Features (A.K.A spells) are CHA based not using his prime attribute goes against his nature. Yes he can use a Blade, you're just dumping your prime attribute.

4. Tell me the advantages then ;)

5. Positioning issues only; most of the time it was AWAY safer just to Eldritch Blast instead of getting in melee range.

In practice, when the game is running, usually somebody or something must hold the enemies away from the rest of the party. Assuming the party does not have access to something, such as some area control spells, collective enhanced mobility, etc, that would effectively result in all melee types being obsolete, this somebody who will hold enemies away is better served by being a capable melee PC. If someone is choosing to play as a bladelock, they are probably making the conscious decision to be that someone who will hold the line in melee to allow for the squishier in the party to be safe. If being in melee is not an issue, why even bother discussing bladelocks, or any other melee build from any other class for that sake?

So, for the rest of my argumentation, I will assume being in melee is somehow relevant when playing D&D, just to be able to keep the discussion meaningful in any way. I guess discussing the merits of being in melee is a topic for another thread.

Without feats, the eldritch blaster is not a real top-tier threat in melee. They attack with disadvantage, their primary atribute (CHA) does not contribute to their defense in general, they have to invest in invocations to keep up damage with any weapon-user from the very beginning, their opportunity attack suck. A bladelock, on the other hand, might use STR or DEX as their primary atribute. This way they can choose to be more offensive, if going STR and big weapons, or defensive, by going DEX and using finesse weapons. Now they attack without disadvantage in melee, and have a ok-ish opportunity attack to help them fulfil their role. The STR-based will have a similar AC as the Cha based eldritch blaster, and the DEX-based will eventually end up with better AC. CHA not being primary definitely changes the way this warlock will handle their own spell list, and they will generally be less effective offensively spell-wise, but one cannot have everything, right? There is always a compromise. Anyhow, there are some funny stuff warlocks can do, for example with armor of agathys and some clever use of blade ward, and when it is over, hopefully enemies are already starting to die, and you can begin benefiting from dark one's blessing.

With feats, eldritch blasters can be effective frontliners, but it has.... guess what? - a price to pay, as everything in the game. Crossbow expert just to get rid of disadvantage in melee, plus warcaster for that extra oomph opportunity attack, which I am not even sure could be used with eldritch blast, as this spell can potentially target more than one creature. Now, STR and DEX bladelocks have other nice options, unavailable for eldritch blasters, and they can also benefit from warcaster, by making good use of booming blade. Some people point out that tomelock is a better melee warlock. This is only true if one is putting a premium in going CHA primary, and ultimately limits your melee options. No GWM or defensive duelist for you, for example, and limited array of magic weaponry.

The truth is, there is a lot of double standards, and there are a lot of compromises some people seem not to be willing to do. For instance, I see people complaining that the thirsting blade and life drinker invocations are "taxes". Well, you want a neat feature but don't want to pay anything for it? Do anybody really think valor bards, or even fighters, get extra attack "for free"? This is their sole feature for the level fighters get it, and is the one college feature bards get at that level. The fact that these features cost invocations for warlocks is a feature. Some bladelock multiclass builds might skip thirsting blade, for instance, because they will already get it somewhere else. I wish I could multiclass hunter ranger-champion fighter and not feel like I should go only 4 levels in one of the classes to avoid a completely dead level, the same way as I wish a valor bard would have a better synergy when multiclassing fighter. Moreover, wouldn't agonizing blast, by the same logic, be a "tax" for eldritch blasters? In the long run they will also probably get at least one of eldritch spear and repelling blast too, or even consider taking spell sniper to get rid of partial cover, which is a thing in many games.

For a simple STR build warlock using standard array and no optional rules, how about a maul-wielding mountain dwarf? STR 15 +2 = 17 DEX 13 CON 12 + 2 = 14 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 14. At first level scale armor + DEX 13 = AC 15 is not awful, and at level 4 halfplate might be affordable, throw in +1 STR and DEX, AC goes to 17. Extra attack at level 5, you don't even look much different that your warrior counterparts, solid CON, less base HP but a lot of temp HPs all the time, extra damage from armor of agathys, might as well use booming blade as main attack, at least until level 5. CHA is not primary, but is far from dump. At level 8 you can max STR and at level 12 you may increase CHA and get lifedrinker. And you still get other invocations and one spell slot to play with, every short rest, assuming you are always casting up armor of agathys. Overall very solid build, in my opinion. A half elf or tiefling DEX based would be different by having somewhat less HP and base damage, but better CHA in general and AC on the long run, by taking armor of shadows invocation. With optional rules, a variant human can choose where to go, maybe picking medium armored or warcaster at level 1, being the stickiest melee right from the gate.

In the end, don't expect a bladelock to be as effective in melee as a STR champion fighter. They should never be. After all, when going bladelock and choosing STR or DEX as a primary stat, you are not giving up all your invocations, and when using armor of agathys to help absorb damage, you are not giving up all your arcane power. Actually, far from that. But don't go on thinking it is not a viable option, because for a lot of games it is. And it is awesome that it plays very differently from eldritch knights, valor bards and bladesingers, because the chassis is different, the compromises are different, the spell list is different, and more importantly, the flavor is different.


Edit: to address @Leo Giorni Nocchi point about fighter being a STR-based class, well, in the optimization forums you will find a lot of people, I mean really, a lot, that disagree vehemently with you. Heck, there are advocates for DEX build paladins and even barbarians. Moreover, rangers get exactly the same weapon proficiencies as fighters and are most often considered DEX based, which goes strongly against your argument. Anyhow, being such a big fan on staying away from opposition as you seem to be, it is at least ironic that you support the opinion that the fighter is STR-based. It seems to me your approach to atributes, classes and character build is actually quite narrow.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
I think the hexblade patron pretty much shows the basic issue here. Would you ever take it and not be a blade pact warlock? No! It makes no sense! The pact is supposed to be a minor twist on the base archetypes, but one of the three pacts is something that needs to be an archetype itself. The problem is, that makes no sense as long as your archetypes are based on patrons instead. The 'weight' of your archetype choice is your patron. Then we go and contradict that with something that's almost a ribbon. In fact, you could easily made a blastlock who happened to be a blade pact.
The Hexblade is a thinly-disguised "Bladelock patch," but one that almost pidgeon-holds the Bladelock to a particular patron, though it could be easily reskinned to other patrons.

As far as pact goes, well, blade warlocks would obviously gain multiattack at 6 and lifedrinker at 14. Chain warlocks could gain their improved pet at 6, and at-will hold monster at 14. Those work out great. The only pact that would be an issue is Tome, it would get ritual casting at 6 and... something at 14. Maybe the ability to fuel those rituals with a warlock spell slot if they prefer?
Perhaps two additional bonus spells known, similar to a bard's magical secrets?

(I mean, lifedrinker compares favorably to Paladin's improved divine smite!)
I do express some surprise that for an ability labeled "Lifedrinker" that the ability does not entail the Warlock gaining health equal to the necrotic damage dealt, which is both (a) flavorfully appropriate ("hello, Elric"), and (b) would provide the warlock with greater built-in tankiness/survivability.

Honestly, just letting the pact weapon itself use charisma bonus as your stat modifier would get you a long way there.
Which is what the Hexblade permits, but this is perhaps something that should have baked into the core feature of the Blade boon.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Because EB is just that good. Frankly, it's probably too good;
Its fine. Maybe a hair above par with other cantrips. What makes it "too good" in your opinion?

I often comment that EB and Hex are class features disguised as spells.
And yet they aren't. A warlock can play just fine without either or both.

The issue primarily being one of the defensive advantages of being at a range
And here I thought my earlier retort, comparing this mentality to people who argue in favor of archer builds, went unheard...

it makes it much easier to keep your concentration going on hex if you aren't in the thick of things. The end result is that a warlock at range can usually keep his hex up, while a warlock in melee -- minus several ASIs spent on building up concentration -- generally can't.
If only hex were the end-all-be-all, I'd agree with you. Also, I've made plenty of concentration checks. You act like its impossible to ever succeed.

Acknowledging that you're not into Character Optimization, the point of the analysis was actually about putting mathematical numbers on my emotional impressions.
I did no such thing. Also, mixing math and emotions is rarely a solid formula.

Or to put it another way, I was trying to analyze what I 'felt' to be true the best I could. Frankly, the bladelock spends resources to be almost as good in melee as the blastlock is -- with fewer resources spent -- at a distance. That's... OK. I can accept being inferior to the fighter in melee, inferior to the blastlock at range, in return for flexibility. It wasn't what I expected the results to be.
And yet, here we are. Seeing that there is give-and-take, after all. Seriously, maybe if you'd actually try playing one, you'd maybe see that all this white-room analysis isn't always accurate. <shrug>

And of course, you spend way more resources to be good in melee; it takes multiple ASIs and invocations to keep up, while a single invocation gets you all the power of EB's core damage output.
None of this is objective truth. None of that is "needed". Because repeated practical play has shown the not following your "advice" can provide a playable experience that can be just as enjoyable as anything your painstaking, critical analysis can produce. So, at the end of the day, what's it really worth? All this spreadsheeting and hand-wringing? If someone can ignore it all and still play 5e, as intended, just fine and have fun?
 

Corwin

Explorer
You seem to be mixing several topics, some about archers (i.e., dex fighters focusing on using a bow), some about warlocks.

1. Since his best Weapon Proficiencies are STR based (A.K.A non Finesse)...
Define "best"? One of the best weapons in the entire game is dex-based. What to guess which one? I'll give you a hint: It's similar to a shortbow, but longer.

...and he needs at least 15 STR to wear a Full Plate without speed penalty I classify him as a STR based class.

2. Speed Penalty, I believe your archer don't have 15 STR
You seem to be saying that a fighter, even one who chooses to focus on Dex, would have problems getting his Strength to a 15 by the time full plate is on the table. Is that what you are saying?

3. Since most of the Warlock's Features (A.K.A spells) are CHA based not using his prime attribute goes against his nature. Yes he can use a Blade, you're just dumping your prime attribute.
I'm getting the impression you either haven't seen warlocks bother to have a decent Dexterity (also a melee stat), or just plain flat out haven't seen warlocks even.

4. Tell me the advantages then ;)
For what? Bladelocks? You mean other than wanting to play a character with the cool ability to summon weapons from thin air and be able to use it?

5. Positioning issues only; most of the time it was AWAY safer just to Eldritch Blast instead of getting in melee range.
I'm going to assume you meant "WAY". I used to play with a guy, that no matter what level we were, would get visibly upset anytime his character took damage. Even if we were high level and he had over a hundred hit points, taking even a handful of damage upset him. Its weird the way some people process the game, isn't it?

Yeah, by your own words, if his concern was to maximize being "WAY safer", bladelock was the wrong option. As I said in my last post, he made a terrible choice and wasn't playing what he really wanted. So that's on him, not the subclass.
 

Nope, not what I intended.

I think they are viable and excellent and do well in melee. However, they may want to prep more and consider rushing in more carefully than a fighter might. They may drop a good spell before doing so for example.

Most of the objections to blade pact warlock that I have noted hinge on 1:1 comparison with fighters without considering their other abilities.

But more to the point: I see many people say that a blade pact warlock is not very survivable but I don't see similar complaints about chain or tome lock. So my question is: how are they suddenly less survivable by strapping some melee option on them?

That is actually what I was getting at. But for me, I play in your face with blade pact and have not had a big problem. Maybe it will happen at higher levels. I do not see an indication of that at this time however.
Fair enough. Though, I think that's still problematic, given the mathematical limitations. When the game first came out, I ran a blade'lock using AoA, but the misunderstanding that extra THP from Fiend would keep the spell active. It worked pretty well, actually, and I still think that's kind of the intent (why else an hour duration?) Same with Hex - why let it have an 8 hour duration if you can't keep it around thanks to all the Concentration checks? But that's not actually what the rules say happens.

I honestly think that the -intent- behind how the blade works is solid, but they messed up the mechanics and expectations for various reasons, often by copying other class abilities that don't quite work right with the unique aspects of warlock. A fiend blade'lock running Hex, AoA and Hellish Rebuke has a rather nice damage output. It has very little sustainability before completely fizzling out, however.

The Tome Pact works great. Eldritch Blast, when coupled with Tome, works excellent. It fits the theme and intent of that particular path for warlocks, and I think that the reason why Eldritch Blast isn't a core feature of all warlocks is because its only meant for one of three paths of warlock. WotC did an awesome awesome job making the spell-casting focused warlock really click. However, Blade and Chain are both problematic.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
Fair enough. Though, I think that's still problematic, given the mathematical limitations. When the game first came out, I ran a blade'lock using AoA, but the misunderstanding that extra THP from Fiend would keep the spell active. It worked pretty well, actually, and I still think that's kind of the intent (why else an hour duration?) Same with Hex - why let it have an 8 hour duration if you can't keep it around thanks to all the Concentration checks? But that's not actually what the rules say happens.

I honestly think that the -intent- behind how the blade works is solid, but they messed up the mechanics and expectations for various reasons, often by copying other class abilities that don't quite work right with the unique aspects of warlock. A fiend blade'lock running Hex, AoA and Hellish Rebuke has a rather nice damage output. It has very little sustainability before completely fizzling out, however.

The Tome Pact works great. Eldritch Blast, when coupled with Tome, works excellent. It fits the theme and intent of that particular path for warlocks, and I think that the reason why Eldritch Blast isn't a core feature of all warlocks is because its only meant for one of three paths of warlock. WotC did an awesome awesome job making the spell-casting focused warlock really click. However, Blade and Chain are both problematic.

Well, I look forward to some small fixes. We shall see.

Perhaps the most discouraging thing in all of this for me is that at the expense of a feat, you do not suffer disadvantage with EB. Crossbow expert, by my reading, suggests it works with spell attack rolls. Sage advice does as well. Slightly less damage for the cost of less MAD will make the optimizer salivate and I get that.

Without this, it is clear to me that the Blade pact fills an clear niche. With this? Someone could armor up and run around point blanking people. In fact, I may need to see how that rolls. It sounds fun. Whatever I play I do not want to stand back and plunk. It is simply not the flavor I want (chocolate vs. vanilla). I want to play a rampaging warlock with either a sword or touch attacks. And yes, I will wear armor and likely cast armor of agathys.

I cannot help but wonder at greatsword and blade pact though. I believe they do more damage until there is a fourth Eldritch blast and still it is close.

For me it comes down to roleplay choices more than anything. Either one can play well in a party. I will be happy when and if hexblade comes online. I would not mind playing a pre armored Elric Half-Elf of questionable moral fiber...

One thing I love about warlocks...there is a lot of space for many different characters in one class.
 

There's a number of small tweaks you can do to get Blade Pact rolling. Honestly, the big fixes needed are 1) concentration, 2) MAD issues, and 3) HP / AC issues. You'll notice that Bladesinger, a comparable full-caster-plus-melee path, gives some rather nice bonuses to enable the gish-ness. Bonus to Concentration checks, advantage on Dex (Acrobatics), and AC boost. Yes, Athletics or Acrobatics tend to be necessary for melee people. Just need similar, and viola.

So, after that, we get to Chain. Now Chain... chain is supposed to be a pet class with very breakable and problematic pets, and not a blaster. It is in desperate need of help that I don't even know where to begin.
 

RonLugge

First Post
Its fine. Maybe a hair above par with other cantrips. What makes it "too good" in your opinion?

The synergy with hex, primarily. You could argue back and forth on whether more hits at less damage is actually better than a single hit with higher damage, but the synergy with hex means you really do mathematically get more damage.

And yet they aren't. A warlock can play just fine without either or both.

And promptly have the entire table complain that he just isn't very effective.

If only hex were the end-all-be-all, I'd agree with you. Also, I've made plenty of concentration checks. You act like its impossible to ever succeed.

Assuming a con of 14, you have a maximal chance of 65% to make the save each time you're hit; less if the damage is higher than 21 and starts bumping up the DC. Or to put it another way, 35% of the time you'll fail -- nearly a third. At T1, you might get hit once a round, so hex might make it a single 3 round fight. By the time you get into higher tiers, you're typically getting hit more than once a round or by something much, much more damaging. Impossible to succeed, no, but you're going to run out of spell slots *very* fast on a regular basis.

I did no such thing. Also, mixing math and emotions is rarely a solid formula.

Using math to examine concrete realities is always a solid formula. Emotions don't answer to math, true, but math can inform logic.

And yet, here we are. Seeing that there is give-and-take, after all. Seriously, maybe if you'd actually try playing one, you'd maybe see that all this white-room analysis isn't always accurate. <shrug>

Except... the math is there because of my play issues with a bladelock. I did the math after I started playing a bladelock, and had issues. Half the reason I'm doing this is because one of my character simply won't scale into T3 and I know it. My original thoughts were purely damage oriented, but as I started poking at it, I began to understand -- the math showed and guided my logic -- that it wasn't the underlying damage that was the issue. The math helped guide me into a few realizations about the design of the character that makes him feel less weak, too.

So, at the end of the day, what's it really worth? All this spreadsheeting and hand-wringing? If someone can ignore it all and still play 5e, as intended, just fine and have fun?

It's worth the emotional validation of showing how my emotions are right, even if the general thrust of them is wrong.
 

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