D&D 5E Crawford on Stealth

[schnee]

Let me guess. Is it you? As for me, all I said is if you have a problem with the way you perceive my tone, don't expect me to backpedal because you ordered me to "cool my jets". If you really think that kind of intervention is necessary, take it to the mods and let them do it. I'm happy to leave it there.

You're obviously not used to giving the kind of respect you demand.

This thread is enough of a disaster with your social skills without me adding gas to the fire.

Have fun, I'll leave you to it!

 

[Hriston]

You're obviously not used to giving the kind of respect you demand.

This thread is enough of a disaster with your social skills without me adding gas to the fire.

Have fun, I'll leave you to it!

Toodles! I'm sure the thread will be greatly improved without your personal attacks.

 

[Barolo]

So all this talk about passive perception... I want to know when do we use passive stealth?

You know those situations, when in the middle of a chaotic combat, a wizards uses their action to cast invisibility and then moves away? Some people will very confidently rule that the wizard's position is known to all the enemies, because there was no action left for the wizard to attempt a stealth check, which is perfectly fine. But some other people will feel like there is indeed a chance that some of the enemies will lose track of the wizard, maybe not the one enemy that was bashing the same wizard just two seconds ago, but another one that was nearby but too busy dodging the pummeling from the frenzying maul-wielding barbarian, or that other latecomer that arrived one round too late in the scene. For those cases, a passive stealth seems like a nice starting point.

 

[robus]

So all this talk about passive perception... I want to know when do we use passive stealth?

It's what you're doing as you wonder around a dungeon or wherever in a stealthy manner. Rather than continuously rolling every 20 ft or so (and risking a wild swing of the dice) you use your passive stealth number.

Now one can say that this makes things boring as the passive stealth of the PCs would be checked against the passive perception of any guards, monsters whatever. There are two ways (at least) to handle that. One is yes, if the perceived wins then passive contest then they become aware of something out of the ordinary. Not necessarily the party (depends on how big the difference is) but at least that things need to be checked out. The party then can try and actively stealth (or hide) to avoid further detection.
Or you could roll perception for the monster/guard under the assumption that they probably heard something and are now listening/looking more intently to confirm their hunch.

 

[Satyrn]

I think it helps if you understand it as a contest where one side is trying to notice a hidden threat and the other side is trying to remain unnoticed.

Yes it would, since I see it exactly the opposite of that.

I'm saying it feels odd to me to look at it the quoted way.

 

[Arial Black]

This is all fine. I agree with every word. The rogue takes the Hide action, which means that he stays out of sight and stays quiet. From that point forward, he is hiding, and his DEX (Stealth) check, the mechanical representation of his attempt to hide, is contested by the WIS (Perception) check of any creature that searches for him until he is discovered by that creature or stops hiding. This 'hiding' is the state of affairs as we go into any contest, and whether he is discovered is what remains to be resolved by any such contest. If a searching creature wins the contest, the rogue is discovered. But if the rogue wins, or in the event of a tie, then the rogue remains undiscovered.

"From that point forward, he is hiding'". I agree. But to get to 'that point' he first has to successfully hide while enemies who know where he is are actively trying to continue to keep track of him!

The way you run it is that the rogue auto-succeeds at that contest so the enemy automatically lose track and have to actively search to find him again. That auto-success is not justified. The enemy are actively trying to keep track of him, and the rogue is trying to get them to lose track of him.

This is a good example of giving your opinion when you haven't bothered to properly digest the posts to which you are replying or the evidence that's been given. I gave Jeremy Crawford's reply because I felt it was an unequivocal statement in its own right, and because anyone could look up the full exchange on twitter or sageadvice.eu for themselves. But I'll post the entire exchange now to show how ridiculous your position is with reference to Crawford's intent.

Q: @JeremyECrawford What if Stealth Check equals Passive Perception check?
In case of tie a Passive Score it's like a DC or it's like a Contest?

A: When hiding, you want to meet or exceed another creature's passive Perception score.

Now you can explain to me how he wasn't talking about what to do in case of a tie.

In context, "when hiding" assumes that you are already hidden and a creature looking for you wants to change that, so Stealth wins the tie. I've already gone through this in detail and JC and I are of one mind.

JC wasn't referring to the situation where an un-hidden creature is trying to become hidden while currently being kept track of.

The 'natural language' I was referring to was the phrase "when hiding". It can mean "when you are already hiding='hidden'" OR it could mean "when you are in the process of trying to hide='become hidden'".

How do we know which sense he meant? Because one way matches the game system where a tie=unchanged, and the other would result in an unwritten exception to the tiebreaker rule via tweet/podcast/whatever.

 

[Maxperson]

JC wasn't referring to the situation where an un-hidden creature is trying to become hidden while currently being kept track of.

Why would he. You can't hide while being observed without some sort of special ability to allow it.

 

[Hriston]

"From that point forward, he is hiding'". I agree. But to get to 'that point' he first has to successfully hide while enemies who know where he is are actively trying to continue to keep track of him!

No. You're jumping ahead to resolving the contest again. Go back and read the hiding rules in chapter 7. The phrase "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding" tells you that once you make a DEX (Stealth) check, and before it is contested, you are hiding.

The way you run it is that the rogue auto-succeeds at that contest so the enemy automatically lose track and have to actively search to find him again.

Why do you continually presume to tell me I run things in a way I do not? It's extremely tiresome and does nothing to advance the conversation. You should read my descriptions of how I run things and respond to that instead of making up your own version. The way I run it, the contest you describe doesn't exist. There is only the contest described in the hiding rules in chapter 7, in which one party is hiding and another is trying to find her.

In context, "when hiding" assumes that you are already hidden and a creature looking for you wants to change that, so Stealth wins the tie. I've already gone through this in detail and JC and I are of one mind.

JC wasn't referring to the situation where an un-hidden creature is trying to become hidden while currently being kept track of.

The 'natural language' I was referring to was the phrase "when hiding". It can mean "when you are already hiding='hidden'" OR it could mean "when you are in the process of trying to hide='become hidden'".

How do we know which sense he meant? Because one way matches the game system where a tie=unchanged, and the other would result in an unwritten exception to the tiebreaker rule via tweet/podcast/whatever.

"When hiding" refers to the same state of affairs that it does in chapter 7. The DM has determined that conditions are appropriate for hiding, and you have tried to hide, making a DEX (Stealth) check. You want to meet or exceed the passive Perception score of any creature from which you are hiding.

 

[Arial Black]

"When hiding" refers to the same state of affairs that it does in chapter 7. The DM has determined that conditions are appropriate for hiding, and you have tried to hide, making a DEX (Stealth) check. You want to meet or exceed the passive Perception score of any creature from which you are hiding.

The part I bolded is the crucial part.

We all agree, you, me, JC, everyone, that if you 'have tried to hide' (past tense) then you are already hidden at the point where the enemy tries to search for you. Since you are already hidden, Stealth effectively wins the tie.

But in the combat situation we are discussing the rogue is 'unseen' (behind packing crate) but not yet 'hidden' (we can hear him). Therefore, his attempt to hide is not in the past, it is in the future.

When the rogue does try to hide it is still not in the past; it is in the present. It is not true to say that you 'have tried to hide', you are still 'in the process of trying to hide' (present tense) so you absolutely cannot assume you already are 'hidden'. The enemy are actively contesting your attempt to hide. You haven't succeeded yet, you are not hidden yet, therefore you are trying to change from being 'un-hidden' to 'hidden', and therefore ties effectively go to Perception.

 

[Hriston]

The part I bolded is the crucial part.

We all agree, you, me, JC, everyone, that if you 'have tried to hide' (past tense) then you are already hidden at the point where the enemy tries to search for you. Since you are already hidden, Stealth effectively wins the tie.

But in the combat situation we are discussing the rogue is 'unseen' (behind packing crate) but not yet 'hidden' (we can hear him). Therefore, his attempt to hide is not in the past, it is in the future.

When the rogue does try to hide it is still not in the past; it is in the present. It is not true to say that you 'have tried to hide', you are still 'in the process of trying to hide' (present tense) so you absolutely cannot assume you already are 'hidden'. The enemy are actively contesting your attempt to hide. You haven't succeeded yet, you are not hidden yet, therefore you are trying to change from being 'un-hidden' to 'hidden', and therefore ties effectively go to Perception.

Read chapter 7 again. If you are "still in the process of trying to hide" then the die with which you are making your DEX (Stealth) check is still rolling. Once the die stops rolling, however, and you have the resulting number to represent your attempt to hide, from that point forward, you are hiding until one of two things happens. Either you stop hiding voluntarily or by accident, or you are discovered as the result of your check being contested by another creature's WIS (Perception) check. The attempt to hide comes first, followed by any attempt to discover which contests it. These are the same rules for hiding in chapter 7 which are followed when you take the Hide action in combat.