D&D 5E What makes a "full" spellcaster? [Warlock discussion]

[Irda Ranger]

Yeah. How many "spell slot levels expended per day" credit is being given for at-will access to spells like: alter self, arcane eye, detect magic, disguise self, false life, jump, levitate, mage armor, silent image, speak with animals, and/or speak with dead? (Did I miss any?)

Those are 1st and 2nd levels spells, and how many times per day can you really use Speak With Dead? The cleric in my campaign has used it twice in the campaign so far. The Druid has used Speak With Animals maybe twice during the whole campaign. Mage Armor you cast 1/day. You'd probably get the most castings out of Silent Image. So it's really spell-specific.

As a general rule you're limited by the practical applications. So even though it's technically at-will it probably counts as 3/day at most. Silent Image being the exception. But frankly some of those choices really suck.

 

[Corwin]

Those are 1st and 2nd levels spells, and how many times per day can you really use Speak With Dead? The cleric in my campaign has used it twice in the campaign so far. The Druid has used Speak With Animals maybe twice during the whole campaign. Mage Armor you cast 1/day. You'd probably get the most castings out of Silent Image. So it's really spell-specific.

I believe there's been at least one or two times when I've used disguise self upwards of something like 6-8 times in a single day for my warlock. False life is likely going to be used (at least) as many times as there are battles to be had in a day. That's not nothing. And are you implying at-will detect magic isn't a huge class feature? Huge!

Oh, and Mage Armor only lasts 8 hours, BTW. Don't know about you, but most of my campaigns use a 24-hour day cycle.

As a general rule you're limited by the practical applications. So even though it's technically at-will it probably counts as 3/day at most. Silent Image being the exception. But frankly some of those choices really suck.

Okay. But even if you have just two of them, and you use them both only 3 times a day, using your own terminology, that's between 6-12 "spell slot levels expended per day". Which is significant compared to the same metric you are using to evaluate the various casters (even wizards or clerics).

I mean, detect magic. At will! Cummon! Tell me other spellcasters don't drool over that...

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

This isn't about whether Warlocks are any good, but whether they are really full casters.

Like Mellored, I say no. They get a great cantrip. They get a bunch of SLAs (using 3ed terminology), some of them high level and 1/day. Their spellcasting is accelerated half-casting with a weird mechanic: They *never* get a 6th level spell slot with which to upcast or cast the 6th level spell of their choice.

The spells they do get largely (with a few exceptions) support their role of striker (using 4ed terminology), either using EB or a weapon. The issue isn't about being a striker but about the mechanic being not about spells.

So no.

 

[Yunru]

They gain a spell level every two levels, up to ninth level, so I'd have to say yes.

 

[CapnZapp]

Basically, I've run the numbers, and their spellcasting is really underpowered compared to all the others. They know the same number of spells or fewer than Sorcerers, know way fewer spells than Wizard or Cleric, know fewer spells than a Wizard or Cleric can prepare even, get fewer total spells/day, the least number of Cantrips, and only break even on "spell slot levels expended per day" (a number I made up equal to the sum of all spell slot-levels) if you assume two SRs.

So what is the problem then? That you called it a "full spellcaster", inviting a comparison to other classes?

But if we don't call it a "full spellcaster", seeing it does other things too (notably the best non-feat attack in the game: Eldritch Blast with associated invocations), then what?

If we call the Warlock a "striker" or a "blaster" character, that just so happens to have significant (but not total) high-level spellcasting capacity... does that remove the feeling of "underpoweredness"?

Basically, is there a problem here?

 

[mellored]

As a general rule you're limited by the practical applications. So even though it's technically at-will it probably counts as 3/day at most. Silent Image being the exception. But frankly some of those choices really suck.

A level 11 wizard has 4 level 1 slots, 3 level 2 slots = 7 low-level slots.
A level 11 warlock has (5-1 for agonizing blast) = 4 invocations.

Thus Warlocks "win" if they can use their invocations twice per day.

 

[CapnZapp]

White room math only gets you so far. I've played alongside several warlock and in my experience, they do not lack whatsoever.

Thanks. It's that sort of playtest feedback and impressions I was looking for.

If you select the Warlock class expecting full spellcasting ability, including the capacity to be the "I have a spell for that" arcane caster of the party, providing key attack, buff and utility spells, I can see why you would be disappointed.

But if you instead treat it much like Valor Bard, that is a secondary fighter with some magical backup - that you mostly go "pew-pew" with EB, and save your few big spells for really important encounters, you might get a similar experience to Fanaelialae.

The thing is, a Warlock becomes only better with a Wizard in the party, since that means nobody expects you to pull off the utility spells. In contrast, if you are the only caster in a party, you can easily feel inadequate since your fighting ability is often trumped by the dedicated martials, and there is no chance you can supply all the spells a Wizard or Cleric could.

Like any hybrid class, you work best in a diverse party, where your strength in providing martial backup is appreciated, since there is no second tank, no second striker, no second skill monkey already; and nobody will notice the limits of your spellcasting with a Wizard and Cleric (say) already in the group!

 

[Mephista]

That being said, I have a major reservation about their balance with the other "full" spellcasters. So I'd like to query the community about your experience with the Warlock.

It honestly depends on how often you get short rests. Don't treat the warlock like its a blaster like a sorcerer or evoker. Other than Eldritch Blast, the spells are more tactical and often have different applications. However, with a Rod ofthe Pact, you can get some really nice bonuses to charms or other control spells.

On the flip side, if you know that you're just chilling around town for an hour or two, you have absolutely no qualms about using your spells on frivilous things; they're just going to recharge before your next fight. This gives you a lot more flexibilty between fights than anyone else. Vanician casters have to hoard spells in the event of a battle where they need it, or to buff at important moments. No worries about that here!

And, to be honest, an Eldritch Blaster with Hex running is pretty powerful to the point you don't NEED those spell slots usually. Boring, perhaps, but it works if that's your focus. If you go Chain, have fun with summoned monsters or mind control doing your dirty work, whereas Blade? ITs got some issues, but thr right magic spells / items make it effective enough to be competative with the other classes.

But is it worth it?

If you're in a non-mix-maxing hyper-optimixation group, absolutely.

(Note that I'm ignoring the benefits from the Patrons. They seem roughly the same as the benefits from Cleric Domain or Wizard Tradition, so that's a wash.)

That's a mistake there. With Fiend, you get some awesome gish-benefits. Fey basically is giving you free spells to maniuplate the battlefield. Old One gives you new pets to have in battle. That has a big impact on play.

 

[CapnZapp]

Also, don't play a Warlock if you feel it is "boring" to go pew-pew with Eldritch Blast.

That's much like statting up an archer and then complaining you don't get to do much more than shoot arrows into people.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Spell slots, access to level-appropriate spells, invocations, short rests per day, etc. aren't the only issues for a Warlock. They lack one important thing that other full casters take for granted: flexibility. Most full casters can choose what level of spell slot to use when casting; warlocks don't have this all-important option. For levels 1-5, all of their spells are cast at the highest possible level; they never have the option of using a lower level slot, even for spells that don't scale up with level. It gets worse for levels 6-9; they can't ever scale a spell up - an option freely available to all other full casters! In other words, Warlocks get the short end of the stick on both ends. They may be full casters, but obviously some casters are fuller than others.

I'd like to see an official remedy for this from WOTC, but I'm not expecting it any time soon.