D&D 5E Best designed classes in 5e

[The Crimson Binome]

1. Disagree. Rules are made to be broken. Exceptions are always going to exist and can produce some fabulous mechanics.

Exceptions are not necessarily good. Everything better requires a change, but not every change is to the better. Rules are in place for a reason, and should be followed unless you have a specific reason to change them.

2. There's a difference between casting actual spells on a turn and using an ability that converts a spell slot to extra damage twice on a turn.

For the purpose of resource management, there is no difference. You're still draining two spell slots on your turn, whenever you feel like it, in addition to anything you cast as a bonus action or reaction.

3. IMO Paladins smite feature is probably the best designed feature in the game! It has perfect flavor for the class. It fits well mechanically. It's new and innovative for D&D.

Flavor is a matter of perception and expectation, but a unique mechanic does not fit well mechanically almost by definition; it's inconsistent with other mechanics, to no real obvious benefit. It is uniquely powerful, so either it is over-powered, or every other similar feature is under-powered.

4. As far as rate of use concerns go. Paladins get 2 attacks. To use divine smite twice he has to hit with both attacks. There's some turns he will miss both attacks and not get to use it any. The most likely thing to happen is that he hits with 1 of those 2 attacks and misses with the other. So while he is not capped at 1 divine smite per turn, it's not like he's getting significantly more than 1 divine smite on average per turn. If you want to talk about how bonus action attack feats mess with that balance or multiclassing messes with it then I'm all ears. But the feature controls its own usage rate under the basic class assumptions of 2 attacks per round and having a 60% chance to hit most enemies.

This is a real point, but the stated assumption - whether or not it was originally intended as a balancing factor (which I am inclined to believe it was) - does not hold in practice. Due to poor implementation of Bounded Accuracy, the Paladin is likely to have a much greater than sixty percent chance of hitting. In fact, in the context of boss fights, the Paladin is even more likely to hit since there's every incentive to go all-out on buffs and de-buffs.

A class that's great against bosses, and not-so-great against trash, is not a balanced class. This has been evident in every edition, with the possible exception of fourth.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Your reasons for thinking it's not a well designed mechanic aren't based on the games basic assumptions because when compared to the games basic Paladin assumptions of 2 attacks per round and 60% chance to hit on average then the rate of use of divine smite isn't too fast. If your paladins stray to far from those basic assumptions then I can understand seeing the ability as problematic. If those assumptions don't hold then it will feel like the ability can be spent at to fast a rate.

Sure, that's a pretty succinct way of putting it. The Paladin class is poorly-designed because it relies on a bunch of assumptions which don't actually hold in play.

My suggestion is blame the imbalance on whatever is causing those assumptions to not be true and not the Paladin class itself.

So... blame it on the players having free will? Or blame the players for acting rationally? Blame the ludicrous healing rules which cause any non-boss fight to be completely trivial? Blame the entire rest of the game, aside from the Paladin class, because blaming the one mechanic which is obviously disruptive would be too effective?

No, I'm going to place the blame where it belongs: on this poorly-designed class feature. By blaming this offensive mechanic, we can address the problem directly, and make the smallest change possible while still salvaging the rest of the system.

 

[Gladius Legis]

A class that's great against bosses, and not-so-great against trash, is not a balanced class. This has been evident in every edition, with the possible exception of fourth.

Uh, did you just claim that a class that has distinct and well defined strengths and weaknesses is "not balanced"?

That literally makes no sense. Especially compared to 3e where certain classes had *nothing but strengths* (you know what they are by now) and the rest of the classes had mostly weaknesses while being mediocre at the one thing they were *supposed to be good at*.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, that's a pretty succinct way of putting it. The Paladin class is poorly-designed because it relies on a bunch of assumptions which don't actually hold in play.
So... blame it on the players having free will? Or blame the players for acting rationally? Blame the ludicrous healing rules which cause any non-boss fight to be completely trivial? Blame the entire rest of the game, aside from the Paladin class, because blaming the one mechanic which is obviously disruptive would be too effective?

No, I'm going to place the blame where it belongs: on this poorly-designed class feature. By blaming this offensive mechanic, we can address the problem directly, and make the smallest change possible while still salvaging the rest of the system.

Maybe we should start here. Keep in mind divine smite is not a spell it's a damage increasing mechanic that uses a spellslot. So comparing spells per turn to divine smites per turn isn't very apples and apples. I understand totally why they didn't want 2 fireballs being casted on the same turn by 1 caster. I understand totally why they were afraid of 2 spells being cast the same turn.

But the same problems with 2 spells in the same turn don't necessarily occur when we are just talking about a simple melee damage increase that costs a daily resource.

Based on this I think it's reasonable to believe more than 1 divine smite at least sometimes wasn't a concern. With that background what I want to ask you is: "How many divine smites per turn is problematic?"

 

[Valdier]

Best Classes:
Monk, Rogue, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric, Warlock

Worst:
Barbarian (Frenzy), Cleric (Thievery), Monk (Elemental), Ranger, Ranger, Ranger

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Actually, I think it fits exactly with how Warlocks, Fighters, and Monks are designed. It's almost like the game was designed around 2 short rests a day, with 6 fights.

And yet, the game doesn't organically PLAY that way without a visible level of DM ex Machina that gets very lame, very fast. A car can be designed with the steering wheel in the back seat and brake pedal in the front... doesnt make it GOOD design.

It's a bit unrealistic to pause an assault of a dungeon or enemy compound for an uninterrupted hour-long nap so guys like the fighter and warlock don't effectively become long rest classes with short rest resources, while at the same time putting some stupid hand wavey reason why it has to be done NOW to prevent more long rests/5 MWD issues. The game doesnt benefit from having 5 dull battles against attrition soaking chumps before you get to the main event... As the meme goes "Ain't nobody got time for that!". I've got limited play time, and don't always want to waste a few hours farting around with 3 orcs, then 4 more orcs, then an hour long smoke break, then 9 goblins, then... you get the idea. 5th edition handles set piece battles particularly poorly as the math just doesnt support a memorable big boss because their defenses just suck (RIP 4E solos/elites).

I've basically just ditched timed rests entirely, and went pure gamist. You get so many rest/long rest tokens at the start of the adventure, and when they're gone, no more rests for you.

 

[FrogReaver]

Best Classes:
Monk, Rogue, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric, Warlock

Worst:
Barbarian (Frenzy), Cleric (Thievery), Monk (Elemental), Ranger, Ranger, Ranger

I'm assuming you mean trickery cleric? What is wrong with him?

 

[FrogReaver]

And yet, the game doesn't organically PLAY that way without a visible level of DM ex Machina that gets very lame, very fast. A car can be designed with the steering wheel in the back seat and brake pedal in the front... doesnt make it GOOD design.

It's a bit unrealistic to pause an assault of a dungeon or enemy compound for an uninterrupted hour-long nap so guys like the fighter and warlock don't effectively become long rest classes with short rest resources, while at the same time putting some stupid hand wavey reason why it has to be done NOW to prevent more long rests/5 MWD issues. The game doesnt benefit from having 5 dull battles against attrition soaking chumps before you get to the main event... As the meme goes "Ain't nobody got time for that!". I've got limited play time, and don't always want to waste a few hours farting around with 3 orcs, then 4 more orcs, then an hour long smoke break, then 9 goblins, then... you get the idea. 5th edition handles set piece battles particularly poorly as the math just doesnt support a memorable big boss because their defenses just suck (RIP 4E solos/elites).

I've basically just ditched timed rests entirely, and went pure gamist. You get so many rest/long rest tokens at the start of the adventure, and when they're gone, no more rests for you.

Interesting idea!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But the same problems with 2 spells in the same turn don't necessarily occur when we are just talking about a simple melee damage increase that costs a daily resource.

Based on this I think it's reasonable to believe more than 1 divine smite at least sometimes wasn't a concern. With that background what I want to ask you is: "How many divine smites per turn is problematic?"

Those are two different problems, though. The fireball-output-rate isn't the problem which the bonus-action-spell-injunction addresses, because barring unusual circumstances, you're not going to be casting a fireball (or anything like it) as a bonus action. Bonus action spells aren't so big or powerful that you would need to explicitly prevent anyone from casting two in a round.

The problem which the bonus-action-spell-injunction directly addresses is the ability of some characters to burn through their long-rest-resources too much more quickly than other characters. That being the case, it's problematic if the paladin is burning through more than one slot on their turn, regardless of whether that goes into a smite or some other spell effect. Power imbalances aside, half of the problem would be fixed if you could activate Smite as a bonus action and it lasted until your next turn.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Uh, did you just claim that a class that has distinct and well defined strengths and weaknesses is "not balanced"?

Balancing a class to be good against bosses and bad against trash is the same category of error as designing a class to be bad at low levels and good at high levels. It might work in theory, but the drawbacks tend to become irrelevant in practice.

Trash monsters aren't going to hurt anyone regardless, so the fact that the paladin doesn't excel against them is meaningless. Boss monsters might actually hurt someone, so any advantage you have against them is meaningful.