D&D 5E Hey All, Is This Encounter A Reasonable One?

[TheProdigalson1965]

I made an encounter for my next gaming session. We have a player that doesn't like
when things are "shaken up" by tweaking monsters. So I made a CR1 into a CR 2 by taking the
special abilities of the CR1, but adding giving it the HPs and spell abilities of the CR2. But also I have set up
the startegy in a way that I think would be realistic, and challenging. They walk through pretty easily all the "hard" encounters I have sent up to now. So here is the scenario:
Party=4 (maybe 5) 6th level PCs 1 warrior 1 barbarian 1 war cleric 1 pally 1 bladesing (wiz/fighter)
6 CR 2s 4 fighters and 2 clerics

THE DUERGAR ENCOUNTER:

• The dwarves will know the party is coming. There will have been a minor skirmish and word has been sent. The clerics wll prepare the battlefield beforehand.
• The dwarves will split up, with four facing the partyand two coming in from a side tunnel from behind surrounding them.
• The cleric (#1) will have cast “Bless” on the two that are coming from behind, and 1 in the front. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 30feet
Components: V,S, M (a sprinkling of holy water)
Duration: Concentration,up to 1 minute (10 rounds)
Youbless up to three creatures of your choice within range. Whenever atarget makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends,the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack rollor saving throw

• Once the party is in between the dwarves, the 4 warriors “enlarge” effectively sealing any escape route for the party. They can pass through the squares, but AoO will be incurred
• The cleric (#2) cast “silence” centered in the middle of the party. The goal is to stop any spellcasting. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 120feet
Components: V,S
Duration: Concentration,up to 10 minutes
Forthe duration, no sound can be created within or pass through a20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range.Any creature or object entirely inside the sphere is immune tothunder damage, and creatures are deafened while entirely inside it.Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there.

• As the warriors fight, the clerics concentrate on their initial spells, and can still cast Guiding Bolt as offensive ones. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 120feet
Components: V,S
Duration: 1round
Aflash of light streaks toward a creature of your choice within range.Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the targettakes 4d6 radiant damage, and the next attack roll made against thistarget before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to themystical dim light glittering on the target until then.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Every time I see one of these "encounter designs" I'm always reminded of a D&D truism that has held fast during my 37+ years of DM'ing: No plan ever survives first contact with the players.



This is what your encounter sounds like to me: "Some Duegar fighters and two clerics ambush the PC's". If that was all you had in your notes, you'd be good to go. What you wrote above is a nice 'theoretical ambush'...and as long as you, the DM, fully understand that after round 1 your baddies entire plan could very well go up in smoke (and you just roll with the punches, not trying to 'force' the pre-planned tactics), go for it. Sounds fine to me.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[iserith]

By the numbers, this is a Hard challenge. Per the DMG, "A hard encounter could go badly for the adventurers. Weaker characters might get taken out of the fight, and there's a slim chance that one or more characters might die." The difficulty will be increased or decreased by the decisions your players make when they face the challenge.

With regard to moving through the duergar's space, note that you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. It is also difficult terrrain. Further, if you intend on casting guiding bolt, this spell has a Verbal component and will not work in the area of the silence spell.

My advice is to make sure you telegraph this encounter before the PCs run into the ambush. An example would be that someone escapes from a previous battle saying in Dwarven, "I'll go warn the others..." Or something like that.

As well, it seems that despite having a player that is "shaken up" by tweaking monsters, you have tweaked the monsters. While I can't understand why someone would be "shaken up" by such a thing, it seems like you are inviting trouble.

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

Thanks for your input. PMing I understand the whole "Best laid plans" thing. My question is in it's initial concept, was it too hard/unfair/too "killer DM" like. Thanks for the post I appreciate it.

Iserith, Yep, I know of an "Encounter Calculator" online and I run the encounters through that to determine the difficulty, and I knew it was a "hard" encounter. Unfortunately for me, they keep walking through garden variety hard encounters without even losing 1/2 their health. So that's why I figured I would try the whole ambush/spellcaster/shield wall thing. As to the player, my impression is that he wants D&D yo play like WoW. He likes to KNOW what is coming and plans accordingly. So unfortunately, to avoid this conflict, I would have to have no terrain modifiers on the players, no tweaking the monsters at all so that everything is EXACTLY as expected. Thanks for tht ip about having a prior encounter have someone get away to warn others, I like that!

 

[iserith]

He likes to KNOW what is coming and plans accordingly. So unfortunately, to avoid this conflict, I would have to have no terrain modifiers on the players, no tweaking the monsters at all so that everything is EXACTLY as expected. Thanks for tht ip about having a prior encounter have someone get away to warn others, I like that!

It's a reasonable player behavior to want to know what's coming and prepare. So, building on the tip I mentioned about hinting at the duergar ambush you designed in a previous scene, I recommend doing more of that in your game. Figure out a way to foreshadow monsters, traps, terrain, etc. Set up means by which the players can, if they choose, recall lore or make deductions based on these clues to gain an edge. This is known generally as "telegraphing" and it's how you avoid the perception of a challenge as being a "gotcha." If the players know what to expect or have an opportunity to gain that knowledge (and maybe have an edge based on their actions), then they have no grounds to object when they willingly encounter those things. As a side benefit, it will force you to think about your challenges in more detail which makes for a richer tapestry in my experience.

Good luck!

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

In my experience, when duergar get the drop on PCs (as they often will with invisibility), the results can swing wildly, with that opening salvo wreaking havoc. If they’re fresh, it might not be too much of a problem, but if they’ve already depleted some resources, it could go very pear-shaped. In that case, you could always have the duergar fight to subdue, as they are renown slavers.

Personally, I’d feel really grumpy about a player limiting what I can and can’t do as a DM. I love interesting terrain that both sides in a conflict can take advantage of. But then again, who am I to talk? I have a player that really hates character death, so I scaled back my difficulty accordingly.

As to the player, my impression is that he wants D&D yo play like WoW. He likes to KNOW what is coming and plans accordingly. So unfortunately, to avoid this conflict, I would have to have no terrain modifiers on the players, no tweaking the monsters at all so that everything is EXACTLY as expected. Thanks for tht ip about having a prior encounter have someone get away to warn others, I like that!

 

[Flamestrike]

I made an encounter for my next gaming session. We have a player that doesn't like
when things are "shaken up" by tweaking monsters. So I made a CR1 into a CR 2 by taking the
special abilities of the CR1, but adding giving it the HPs and spell abilities of the CR2. But also I have set up
the startegy in a way that I think would be realistic, and challenging. They walk through pretty easily all the "hard" encounters I have sent up to now. So here is the scenario:
Party=4 (maybe 5) 6th level PCs 1 warrior 1 barbarian 1 war cleric 1 pally 1 bladesing (wiz/fighter)
6 CR 2s 4 fighters and 2 clerics

THE DUERGAR ENCOUNTER:

• The dwarves will know the party is coming. There will have been a minor skirmish and word has been sent. The clerics wll prepare the battlefield beforehand.
• The dwarves will split up, with four facing the partyand two coming in from a side tunnel from behind surrounding them.
• The cleric (#1) will have cast “Bless” on the two that are coming from behind, and 1 in the front. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 30feet
Components: V,S, M (a sprinkling of holy water)
Duration: Concentration,up to 1 minute (10 rounds)
Youbless up to three creatures of your choice within range. Whenever atarget makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends,the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack rollor saving throw

• Once the party is in between the dwarves, the 4 warriors “enlarge” effectively sealing any escape route for the party. They can pass through the squares, but AoO will be incurred
• The cleric (#2) cast “silence” centered in the middle of the party. The goal is to stop any spellcasting. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 120feet
Components: V,S
Duration: Concentration,up to 10 minutes
Forthe duration, no sound can be created within or pass through a20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range.Any creature or object entirely inside the sphere is immune tothunder damage, and creatures are deafened while entirely inside it.Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there.

• As the warriors fight, the clerics concentrate on their initial spells, and can still cast Guiding Bolt as offensive ones. Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 120feet
Components: V,S
Duration: 1round
Aflash of light streaks toward a creature of your choice within range.Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the targettakes 4d6 radiant damage, and the next attack roll made against thistarget before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to themystical dim light glittering on the target until then.

I have no idea what the CR of a fighter or cleric are. They are not monsters.

How many encounters do you intend on giving these characters this day? Is this the only encounter, or is it one of 7.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks for your input. PMing I understand the whole "Best laid plans" thing. My question is in it's initial concept, was it too hard/unfair/too "killer DM" like. Thanks for the post I appreciate it.

Iserith, Yep, I know of an "Encounter Calculator" online and I run the encounters through that to determine the difficulty, and I knew it was a "hard" encounter. Unfortunately for me, they keep walking through garden variety hard encounters without even losing 1/2 their health. So that's why I figured I would try the whole ambush/spellcaster/shield wall thing. As to the player, my impression is that he wants D&D yo play like WoW. He likes to KNOW what is coming and plans accordingly. So unfortunately, to avoid this conflict, I would have to have no terrain modifiers on the players, no tweaking the monsters at all so that everything is EXACTLY as expected. Thanks for tht ip about having a prior encounter have someone get away to warn others, I like that!

If a player likes to know what is coming, there are two ways to run it:

(1) You can put the responsibility on the DM and let the players know that they will never run into anything that hasn't been telegraphed in advance; or
(2) You can put the responsibility on the players and let the players know that they will never run into anything that they weren't capable of discovering in advance if they had looked for it.

If you're not having any fun running style #1, consider running style #2. Either the players will use a rogue/shadow monk/chainlock familiar to scout ahead (and you can have fun messing with the scout and/or with the split party while the scout is gone), or they won't, and you can have fun running ambushes like the above, except that the player who likes predictability will have to get mad at the other players for not scouting properly and not the DM.

This issue of "how do you feed the right amount of information to the players" is one that I continue to struggle with finding the right balance. Expecting too much information can really stress the DM out (finding ways to telegraph every little thing); giving too little can be unfair to the players. You can also "cheat" and give the PCs special magic items like a dangerometer that basically detects "encounters" and rates them on the Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly scale; this takes a lot of stress off the DM (you no longer have to think of realistic ways to telegraph e.g. the presence of a purple worm, you just say, "the dangerometer just turned black!") but it is also a little bit gimmicky.

 

[Quickleaf]

Welcome to ENWorld

I made an encounter for my next gaming session. We have a player that doesn't like when things are "shaken up" by tweaking monsters.

As to the player, my impression is that he wants D&D yo play like WoW. He likes to KNOW what is coming and plans accordingly. So unfortunately, to avoid this conflict, I would have to have no terrain modifiers on the players, no tweaking the monsters at all so that everything is EXACTLY as expected.

Let me say, frankly, screw that. DMs "shake things up" all the time; it's practically part of the job description. Nothing malicious about it. Players want a fun challenge, and you want to give them one.

It's great if your player likes to plan for encounters. But D&D is not a MMO. If he throws a fit, you may need to remind him of that. You are the DM, after all. The great thing about D&D is its ability to accommodate wild ideas on both sides of the DM screen in real-time with human creativity.

Being sportsmanlike does not mean you need to be predictable.

They walk through pretty easily all the "hard" encounters I have sent up to now...

Why do you think that is? I'm not being facetious. What do you observe at the table that you think leads to them stomping over "hard" encounters?

For example, is it because you're only running 1-2 fights per day so the PCs can expend most of their resources in just 1-2 fights? If that's the case - for example, in an Out of the Abyss style Underdark exploration - you might consider changing how long rests work in your game.

Party = 4 (maybe 5) 6th level PCs = 1 warrior 1 barbarian 1 war cleric 1 pally 1 bladesing (wiz/fighter)

Your party seems geared for fighting. Also, I notice you seem to use "encounters" to be synonymous with "fights." That leads me to make some assumptions about your style of game... However, I'm still going to offer this advice:

Give them fun stuff to explore! Interesting NPCs to dialogue with! Ethical dilemmas to face! Provide encounters where combat is clearly not the best option. Change things up.

Also: Your party is conspicuously missing a rogue or a utility-based wizard who would do things like disarm traps, unlock doors, scout ahead, etc. Just saying.

THE DUERGAR ENCOUNTER:

Flank your enemy in a passageway. Cast spells to prepare. Box them in.

It's a sound tactical approach...if the duergar indeed know about the PCs and have time to cast buff spells in advance...if the duergar win initiative (or get surprise) and manage to lay down their silence spell in time...if the PCs don't become aware of the duergar and organize their own counter-ambush...if the PCs don't have a way to burrow through stone...if the front-line PCs don't push back the duergar...if...if...if...

The problem I see is that it doesn't make for a terribly interesting encounter.

There's precious few interesting choices for the PCs to make.
The "Search and Destroy" duergar party isn't anywhere near overwhelming enough to inspire suspense/dread.
There's no creative gimmick which leaps off the page and would make me as a player go "wow! that's cool!"
There's no investment for me as a player beyond the rote "survive, kill all monsters, maybe take a hostage to interrogate."

If you want further suggestions – it's very possible you don't and are content with this scenario – feel free to ask.

 

[BoldItalic]

What purpose does the encounter serve, in the context of the adventure as a whole? What are the duergar hoping to achieve?

Are they trying to slow the party down, or to weaken them, or to scare them away, or to take prisoners, or to get themselves pointlessly killed, or ... what?