D&D 5E Power Word Kill (variant)

[darjr]

Think about that as a player.

Your PC walks into a room. The DM tells you that your PC is now under the control of the DM as it has been dominated. No roll. No notice. Nothing - you just lose control of your PC.

There are some players that would be ok with that situation - but a heck of a lot will not be and will be extremely frustrated. Save or die is rare in 5E, but save or effectively die is not - and if you take out the save, all you're left with is effectively die without a chance to survive.

Gotcha. Certainly some things, most things, should still save. It isn’t an all or nothing thing.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Not really:
Meteor Swarm: 20d6 + 20d6 = 140 avg damage per target!
9th level disintegrate: 19d8 + 40 = 106 avg damage
9th level fireball: 14d6 = 49 avg damage per target or 98 avg damage for two targets

Should clarify best single target if you're looking for raw, guaranteed damage because there is no damage type to resist or save to mitigate. Bypasses the legendary resistance that bosses have. I personally might make Power Word Kill have no effect on undead or constructs. I'm not sure they can die in the traditional sense...

Disintegrate gets a save. Possibility you burn a 9th level slot and get nothing, especially with a boss.

Meteor Swarm same idea, save diminishes the total and subject to resistances.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Think about that as a player.

Your PC walks into a room. The DM tells you that your PC is now under the control of the DM as it has been dominated. No roll. No notice. Nothing - you just lose control of your PC.

There are some players that would be ok with that situation - but a heck of a lot will not be and will be extremely frustrated. Save or die is rare in 5E, but save or effectively die is not - and if you take out the save, all you're left with is effectively die without a chance to survive.

I'm not understanding the problem here, or what you're advocating for. The removal of spells like Dominate and Charm Person?

If this is an issue in someone's home game, sure, remove these sorts of effects. I don't honestly seeing this as a global issue. Most players wouldn't be overly concerned with their character being temporarily taken off the board like this IMO. Particularly if the DM allows them to control their character while under the effect of the charm/domination (which I think most would).

Sounds like a non-issue to me. Curious to hear others' thoughts though.

 

[dave2008]

Meteor Swarm same idea, save diminishes the total and subject to resistances.

Except that you should be able to hit 4 targets. So even a save with resistance is doing about 140 hit points of aggregate damage.

Of course I think MS is OP, so I'm not really going to argue to match that damage. I wish 5e didn't have "special" spells and everything followed the damage guidelines. I would move wish and maybe a few other "specials" to 10th level and make them campaign driven resource

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

That sounds like a good idea. Call it something like Overpower, only capable of affecting a single target at a time so a red dragon can only force a single person to fail a save against their breath weapon. Having it use its own legendary resistance charges also makes using that resource becomes more tactical. Might need to change it slightly to something like:

 Legendary
This creature has 3 legendary charges, they can spend one charge at a time for the following:

• Resistance. We all know this one.
• Overpower. If an ability requires a saving throw, one target automatically fails.

Name might need to change so it doesn't get confused with legendary actions. This also means that other effects could be added to at a later date.

I like it. They can choose to be more dangerous or more defensive. Makes it scary. If my character is forced to fail a save, and that frees up my party to nuke the enemy without that enemy having a guaranteed save... that sounds like a fair trade-off. Of course I am a bit of a masochist when it comes to my own characters, whether I am a tank, healer, or glass cannon. Hit me! (Not my buddies!) I love pulling aggro.

 

[darjr]

I'm not understanding the problem here, or what you're advocating for. The removal of spells like Dominate and Charm Person?

If this is an issue in someone's home game, sure, remove these sorts of effects. I don't honestly seeing this as a global issue. Most players wouldn't be overly concerned with their character being temporarily taken off the board like this IMO. Particularly if the DM allows them to control their character while under the effect of the charm/domination (which I think most would).

Sounds like a non-issue to me. Curious to hear others' thoughts though.

I think they picked that spell to highlight the issue of being able to negate the save on any spell via the ability I suggested. I think it’s a good point.

 

[cbwjm]

Think about that as a player.

Your PC walks into a room. The DM tells you that your PC is now under the control of the DM as it has been dominated. No roll. No notice. Nothing - you just lose control of your PC.

There are some players that would be ok with that situation - but a heck of a lot will not be and will be extremely frustrated. Save or die is rare in 5E, but save or effectively die is not - and if you take out the save, all you're left with is effectively die without a chance to survive.

You still need to roll for initiative before that happens, the target still gets saving throws to break free, and what are the rest of the party going to do? Maybe the wizard fires off a dispel, maybe someone hits their friend to force a saving throw, maybe the rest of the party goes nova on this legendary creature. I honestly don't think this is that big a deal unless you're playing a solo game with a single PC.

I think the people I play with are definitely the people who wouldn't mind about this. Some would likely chuckle with glee as they turn around to face their former comrades.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I think they picked that spell to highlight the issue of being able to negate the save on any spell via the ability I suggested. I think it’s a good point.

In that light, that makes sense. It looked like that poster was responding to someone... if so, it was someone who's blocked me, so no context for me!

 

[jgsugden]

I'm not understanding the problem here, or what you're advocating for. The removal of spells like Dominate and Charm Person?...

I was responding to the idea of giving Legendary Monsters an ability to cause enemies to automatically fail saving throw.

You still need to roll for initiative before that happens...

Giving you one set of actions, perhaps, to end a legendary monster's threat?

,... the target still gets saving throws to break free...

From certain spells, but not all. Dominate Monster, for example, doesn't give you one per turn, but only one in specific circumstances.

..., and what are the rest of the party going to do? Maybe the wizard fires off a dispel, maybe someone hits their friend to force a saving throw, maybe the rest of the party goes nova on this legendary creature. I honestly don't think this is that big a deal unless you're playing a solo game with a single PC.

You will encounter players that strongly disagree with this assessment if you play with a wide enough pool. The evolution of the game supports this statement. We moved towards more options to avoid disaster and away from little or no chance to avoid it as the editions have gone by. For example, we essentially removed Save or Die spells or changed them to deal damage (like disintegrate). You're free to do what you like, but the game is better when the players are enjoying a good story, and the story of "You have no chance" is not usually very fun.

 

[cbwjm]

I was responding to the idea of giving Legendary Monsters an ability to cause enemies to automatically fail saving throw.
Giving you one set of actions, perhaps, to end a legendary monster's threat?From certain spells, but not all. Dominate Monster, for example, doesn't give you one per turn, but only one in specific circumstances.You will encounter players that strongly disagree with this assessment if you play with a wide enough pool. The evolution of the game supports this statement. We moved towards more options to avoid disaster and away from little or no chance to avoid it as the editions have gone by. For example, we essentially removed Save or Die spells or changed them to deal damage (like disintegrate). You're free to do what you like, but the game is better when the players are enjoying a good story, and the story of "You have no chance" is not usually very fun.

Except you don't have no chance, you have allies. The bad guy getting hit has to roll concentration checks to keep that dominate monster up, if your ally who was dominated takes any damage they make a saving throw, someone in the party might be able to dispel the domination effect. This isn't just a "your save is auto failed so now the game is over", the game keeps going with your allies providing assistance and trying to solve the issue in the fight.

Also, we're in a thread about power word kill, in a high level game if you go up against a lich then your typical wizard or sorcerer is probably dead to a PWK first thing which is probably less fun than your wizard getting dominated for a few rounds.