D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Spells

[Chaosmancer]

This is you in response to my saying a spell can have more than one school.

"If every spell has multiple tags, it has to have the spell list it is from, correct?"

So my asking you a question, premised with a hypothetical, automatically obliges me to a viewpoint? Or is this just you desperately trying to score any points you can despite the conversation being over?

That's arbitrary and wrong. TSR did it. WotC never did it and just because they decided to differ from TSR doesn't make it poor option or a weak option. People and companies make bad decisions all the time.

What is a strong argument is that it was done before and caused no confusion. That absolutely demolishes your "But it would cause confusion" rebuttal.

Sure, whatever man. Anything done in the past and abandoned was the clearly the only right way to do something and never had any problems. Have fun with that. Especially since it isn't even a position you actually even support.

 

[Maxperson]

So my asking you a question, premised with a hypothetical, automatically obliges me to a viewpoint?

So it was a deliberate Strawman? Because I didn't even come close to saying that and as phrased you were attributing that to me.

Asking that question is not a hypothetical. A hypothetical response would have been, "What if WotC decided not to do what you are suggesting and went with multiple schools for every spell?"

Anything done in the past and abandoned was the clearly the only right way to do something and never had any problems.

More Strawmen!! Never said or implied that. What I said was that the multiple schools for spells with........................multiple schools worked just fine and caused no confusion. But hey, falsely attribute what I'm saying to "everything" just like you falsely attributed "all spells" to me. And further falsely attribute it as some sort of One True Way that I never said or implied. And for a THIRD false attributation in a single sentence(a record for you I think, which is impressive), falsely attribute everything in the past as never having any problems to me.

And you accuse me of trying to "desperately trying to score points."

Especially since it isn't even a position you actually even support.

Correct. None of those false attributations are anything I actually support. I do however support multiple schools for the few spells that warrant it, as I told you upthread.

 

[Yaarel]

This is a fun interpretation. It also ignores that the Deep Ethereal connects to the Astral, the Lower Planes, and the Upper Planes, and the Ethereal is reachable in all of them. So the Ethereal pervades all the realms and planes of reality.

The 5e cosmological map portrays the two principles of Positive Energy and Negative Void beyond everything and preexisting everything.

Within their interactions, the Astral Plane forms. The Astral Plane encompasses and overlaps all that exists.

All information, all patterns, all concepts, all math, all emotions, all properties, are information from the thought of the Astral Plane.

The Astral Plane overlaps everything, including the Deep Ethereal.

The Ethereal Plane is a smaller area within the Astral Plane. One can access anywhere in the Ethereal Plane from the Astral Plane that overlaps it.

The name is misleading, because the majority of the planes are made of material, and you can physically move from the material "wildspace" to the immaterial "Astral Sea" which makes no sense if the Astral Sea is non-material.

The Wildspace is a region within the Astral Plane. The Astral Sea is an other region within the Astral Plane.

If someone has planeshifted into the Wildspace, then they have already dematerialized.

A person who is in Wildspace is part of the thought stuff of the Astral Plane.

Wildspace is an Astral overlay over the Material Plane. It behaves much like an augmented reality, where Astral phenomena is like a virtual reality coexisting alongside Material phenomena.

The Wildspace is immaterial, the Material Plane is matter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The 5e cosmological map portrays the two principles of Positive Energy and Negative Void beyond everything and preexisting everything.

Within their interactions, the Astral Plane forms. The Astral Plane encompasses and overlaps all that exists.

All information, all patterns, all concepts, all math, all emotions, all properties, are information from the thought of the Astral Plane.

The Astral Plane overlaps everything, including the Deep Ethereal.

The Ethereal Plane is a smaller area within the Astral Plane. One can access anywhere in the Ethereal Plane from the Astral Plane that overlaps it.

Except you never leave the Ethereal plane. You go from the Shallow Ethereal, to the Deep Ethereal, to the, I don't know Plane of Ghenna. If this was because of the Astral Plane, wouldn't you need to go through the Astral to get to the portal?

The Wildspace is a region within the Astral Plane. The Astral Sea is an other region within the Astral Plane.

If someone has planeshifted into the Wildspace, then they have already dematerialized.

A person who is in Wildspace is part of the thought stuff of the Astral Plane.

Wildspace is an Astral overlay over the Material Plane. It behaves much like an augmented reality, where Astral phenomena is like a virtual reality coexisting alongside Material phenomena.

The Wildspace is immaterial, the Material Plane is matter.

Dead wrong. Completely wrong.

You hop on a spelljammer and fly up, beyond the clouds and enter Wildspace. You never "dematerialize" you have just entered Space. You then travel, completely physically, through Wildspace, until you hit a silver border, cross it, and enter the Astral Sea. If you could hold your breath and go without food for long enough, you could physically fly from a spot on the continent to the Astral Sea. And you never become non-material in the process.

Unless you want to claim that the act of leaving the planet's surface is enough to make you an immaterial thoughtform. Which is not something DnD claims.

 

[Yaarel]

Except you never leave the Ethereal plane. You go from the Shallow Ethereal, to the Deep Ethereal, ...

Both the Border Ethereal and the Deep Ethereal are part of the Ethereal Plane.

The Border Ethereal is the ether that is part of the Material Plane. So creatures that are in the Border perceive and have locations in and can potentially interact with objects in the Material Plane. For example, when someone becomes ethereal, they dematerialize and can pass thru matter. Then rematerialize.

No matter where one goes within the Border Ethereal, one is still physically at some location somewhere in the Material Plane, even if in outerspace in the Material Plane.

To get from the Border Ethereal to the Deep Ethereal that disentangles from matter and the Material Plane requires planeshifting.

... to the, I don't know Plane of Ghenna. If this was because of the Astral Plane, wouldn't you need to go through the Astral to get to the portal?

Because the Astral Plane overlays everything that exists, one can get to the Astral Plane directly from the Border Ethereal, or from the Deep Ethereal, or from anywhere else.

Unless the location of departure has some kind of special affinity with the Gehenna, I would require characters to first go to the Astral Plane, then get to Gehenna while in the Astral Plane.

There is some ambiguity in the 5e sources, but I prefer to view an alignment plane, such as Evil-by-Lawful-Evil Gehenna, to comprise one or more Dominion islands floating in the Astral Sea. Each island is larger than it appears from outside it, and one can easily port from one Dominion to an other Dominion that is part of the same alignment.


A portal is like a wormhole. One can get from anywhere to anywhere in any level of existence simply by passing thru the threshold, with virtually no distance in between. A Gate spell is an example of a portal. By contrast, a Teleportation Circle, is within the same level existence, such as a network within the Material Plane, thus lacking planeshifting capability.

Dead wrong. Completely wrong.

You hop on a spelljammer and fly up, beyond the clouds and enter Wildspace. You never "dematerialize" you have just entered Space. You then travel, completely physically, through Wildspace, until you hit a silver border, cross it, and enter the Astral Sea. If you could hold your breath and go without food for long enough, you could physically fly from a spot on the continent to the Astral Sea. And you never become non-material in the process.

Unless you want to claim that the act of leaving the planet's surface is enough to make you an immaterial thoughtform. Which is not something DnD claims.

The spelljammer is a special kind of magical ship that has planeshifting capability. It can dematerialize, unlike mundane ships.

Entering the Astral Plane means, becoming the immaterial stuff of thought, in other words information constructs (like in a dream or in a digital virtual reality).

This is why "planeshifting" is not the same thing as "teleporting".

To teleport merely means to relocate.

To planeshift means to translate into a different mode of existence.

 

[Shardstone]

And some people can see just fine and disagree with you.

Try to be humble instead of arrogantly assuming after blatantly misreading my post twice. Ill make a draft to show you what I mean.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Try to be humble instead of arrogantly assuming after blatantly misreading my post twice.

I find I often arrogantly assume I'm not incapable of things. Seems weird that it would be more humble to assume that you are so correct that no-one who understands could possibly disagree.

Ill make a draft to show you what I mean.

That would be very welcome, and a much more productive step than trying to insult and belittle someone for disagreeing with you. Because if there WAS miscommunication, trying to clear it up leads to more positive results than going with "you are obviously too stupid to understand me"

 

[Chaosmancer]

Both the Border Ethereal and the Deep Ethereal are part of the Ethereal Plane.

The Border Ethereal is the ether that is part of the Material Plane. So creatures that are in the Border perceive and have locations in and can potentially interact with objects in the Material Plane. For example, when someone becomes ethereal, they dematerialize and can pass thru matter. Then rematerialize.

No matter where one goes within the Border Ethereal, one is still physically at some location somewhere in the Material Plane, even if in outerspace in the Material Plane.

To get from the Border Ethereal to the Deep Ethereal that disentangles from matter and the Material Plane requires planeshifting.

No?

Like, you are correct about what the Border Ethereal is, but if you were in the Border Ethereal due to some effect, you could physically move from the border to the deep, and vice versa. Otherwise they would have to be two seperate planes. Yes, many of the effects that transport you to the Ethereal leave you on the border, because they do not leave you there long enough to travel between the two, but you are positing that such travel is impossible.

Because the Astral Plane overlays everything that exists, one can get to the Astral Plane directly from the Border Ethereal, or from the Deep Ethereal, or from anywhere else.

Unless the location of departure has some kind of special affinity with the Gehenna, I would require characters to first go to the Astral Plane, then get to Gehenna while in the Astral Plane.

There is some ambiguity in the 5e sources, but I prefer to view an alignment plane, such as Evil-by-Lawful-Evil Gehenna, to comprise one or more Dominion islands floating in the Astral Sea. Each island is larger than it appears from outside it, and one can easily port from one Dominion to an other Dominion that is part of the same alignment.


A portal is like a wormhole. One can get from anywhere to anywhere in any level of existence simply by passing thru the threshold, with virtually no distance in between. A Gate spell is an example of a portal. By contrast, a Teleportation Circle, is within the same level existence, such as a network within the Material Plane, thus lacking planeshifting capability.

I don't care what you would require. Again, what you would require and what you would do is not the point. In fact, the point is you need to stop asserting things that only are true because you require them as facts of the meta-setting of DnD.

The spelljammer is a special kind of magical ship that has planeshifting capability. It can dematerialize, unlike mundane ships.

This is false. Spelljammer ships are not capable of planeshifting. They are capable of entering portals, but they physically travel. Their magic is solely based on speed of travel and protecting people on them from the rigors of that travel.

Entering the Astral Plane means, becoming the immaterial stuff of thought, in other words information constructs (like in a dream or in a digital virtual reality).

This is why "planeshifting" is not the same thing as "teleporting".

To teleport merely means to relocate.

To planeshift means to translate into a different mode of existence.

And Spelljammers do not planeshift. They physically enter the Astral by traveling through the Material plane far enough to reach the Astral Plane which physically touches the Material Plane, not as a portal, but as a border.

 

[Yaarel]

Like, you are correct about what the Border Ethereal is, but if you were in the Border Ethereal due to some effect, you could physically move from the border to the deep, and vice versa.

Yes, many of the effects that transport you to the Ethereal leave you on the border, because they do not leave you there long enough to travel between the two, but you are positing that such travel is impossible.

How would one "move" from the Border Ether to the Deep Ether? It wouldnt be by digging downward or flying upward, nor going East or West.

How would one get to the Deep from the Border? What do you have in mind?

Otherwise they would have to be two seperate planes.

More than two, in the sense that beyond the Border Ethereal that is fully in the Material Plane, there are degrees of increasing distortion, until the presence of the Material Plane finally vanishes.

This is false. Spelljammer ships are not capable of planeshifting. They are capable of entering portals, but they physically travel. Their magic is solely based on speed of travel and protecting people on them from the rigors of that travel.

The fact that a spelljammer enters the Astral Plane, means it has planeshifted from one plane of existence into an other plane of existence.

And Spelljammers do not planeshift. They physically enter the Astral by traveling through the Material plane far enough to reach the Astral Plane which physically touches the Material Plane, not as a portal, but as a border.

Shifting out of one plane and into an other plane is, "planeshifting".

A nonmagical flying balloon cannot enter the Astral Plane. Because it lacks planeshifting capability.


To clarify. Wildspace is the Astral Plane.

 

[Shardstone]

I find I often arrogantly assume I'm not incapable of things. Seems weird that it would be more humble to assume that you are so correct that no-one who understands could possibly disagree.



That would be very welcome, and a much more productive step than trying to insult and belittle someone for disagreeing with you. Because if there WAS miscommunication, trying to clear it up leads to more positive results than going with "you are obviously too stupid to understand me"

Oh jesus man, when someone tells you you didn't understand them, is this how you react???? All I was saying originally was I need to show you an example, and you made it into a pissing contest out of nowhere. Jesus Christ man.,

It's perfectly normal for people not to understand each other in a conversation. If you told me that I wasn't understanding, I'd ask you for an example, not complain about how you're somehow belittling me. Boring.