D&D 5E Is the Evocation Wizard better at being a damage Sorcerer than a Sorcerer?

[mellored]

AOEs are very useful most of the time in my experience - more so in 5e due to bounded accuracy. Lower level monsters are still effective in a higher level fight.

I've even had CR1/2 skeleton archers do a fair bit of damage to a level 17 melee character as he huffed and puffed around a big open space trying to cut them down. Fireball was critical.

I've also played through and DMd a couple of official modules now, and they both have large numbers of low level enemies to make up numbers, so I'd say your experience is a bit of an outliner.

Against a group of CR1/2 skeltons, any fireball would do, even from an 8 Cha grappling valor bard. There's no bonus for empowered or overcharge.

Sculpt and quicken are the only features to compare in that scenario.

There will, of course, be times where that extra damage is exactly what is needed to finish off a group, but not often.

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

Right, but I think it's a fair comparison when you're asking 'which class can be blasty-est?' Here the question isn't which has the better baseline options for blasting, but instead which can do the best at it when trying. I think it's reasonably fair to note that sorcerers, which call themselves out as trying to be best at blasting, have the higher median blasting value but fail at tops (or tie, depending) to wizards. Add in the fact that the wizard can do this AND maintain a lot of versatility that the sorcs can't, and it's salt in the wound.

The Sorcerer class is poorly realized: it doesn't sufficiently meet any of it's presented design goals. You can have fun playing it, but that's not because the class it well designed.

Man, this crap gets old.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Man, this crap gets old.

Persuasively stated, I'm a convert!

 

[mellored]

And elemental based subclasses, and class abilities that, at first look, seem to favor blasting

I don't see any elemental sub-class.

There's Dragon, which makes you tougher and let's you fly.
There's Wild, which gives you all sorts of random effects, and some dice manipulation.
And there's Storm, which is probably the closest to blasting, but also includes wind and flying.

(empower, quicken, careful, twin).

Careful always seem like a control feature thing to me, and quicken and twin just seemed like a generic boost. Nothing about them says "blasting" about them, though they work just fine for that.

Empower is the only one that really says blasting. And yea, it's a little weak. Not a full trap, since it after the fact (thus you never waste it), and combining it with others, but still a bit weak overall.


Face value, to me, seems to say that blasting is only one of the things a sorcerer does.

Also, there's a lot of trap choices in the sorcerer class -- both in spell selection, meta-magic selection, and subclass selection. Picking black as your dragonblood color, for instance, is bad. Picking subtle is very limited except in certain game styles. Knowing that you should probably skip picking up a blasting spell of your color (provided your red or white) every level and instead up-cast lower level spell and pick up some variety is another.

I agree that dragon colors are a bit of a trap. But I still don't see how +1 AC, +1 HP, resistance, bonus damage to 1 element, and flying make it a blast-centric sub-class.


That said since it doesn't exist, there is plenty of room for an elemental blast-forced sorcerer sub-class.

1: Arcane Admixture: You can change the element (fire, cold, or lightning) of your spells.
6: Spell Shaper: You can change the shape of your fire, cold, or lightning spells, changing between cone, line, and sphere.
When you use Empower Spell metamagic, you can roll 1 additional die of the same type, and add it to the results.
14: Adaptive Immunity: You gain immunity to fire, cold, or lightning, depending on which spell you cast last.
18: ???

 

[gyor]

People are focused on the metamagic and one subclass feature of the sorceror, but its Font of Magic that makes the Sorceror a Sorceror, the rest is just an extension of that and the origin.

Instead of spending the Sorcery points on metamagic, the Sorceror can spend them on say creating extra 5th level spells, far more then the Wizard has excess too if the Sorceror burns lower level spell slots for sorcerory points.

If it comes down to a duel between an 18 level Sorceror and an 18 level Evocation Wizard, as long as the Sorceror is willing to burn all the fuel they have then Sorceror is going to win, the evocation Wizard has more staying power over more encounters, but less then the Warlock, but of the Sorceror is all in on a spell blasting duel the Wizard most likely is going to lose most of the time.

Still the fact that you have reduced the Sorceror to the Blaster class shows you really don't understand the Sorceror at all.

Wizards weilds magic, the Sorceror IS magic, and that magic is turned to their origins, which shapes that.

So the Sorceror isn't the best at blasting, the Dragon Sorceror is the best at being like a Dragon, which do more then blasting, but still blast really well.

The Favoured Soul is the best at being an Angel/Fiend/Divine Aspect.

The Stone Sorceror is that best at being, well a Swordmage, he really should be renamed the Metal Sorceror.

The Phoenix Sorceror is the best at being like a Phoenix.

The Tempest Sorceror is the best at being the Storm.

The Wild Sorceror is the best at creating Chaos.

The Sea Sorceror is the best at being the Sea.

The Shadow Sorceror is the best at being a creature of Shadow.

They are also good at bending and manipulating the spells they have in ways no one else can. So respective origin and Font of Magic sums up to what. Sorceror is.

So their role can be simply summed up as Blaster, Tank, Buffer, Healer, or whatever, there roles is manipulator of magic and being more then human.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Man, this crap gets old.

Hey, the sorcerer may not be the greatest class design ever, but it's not 'crap.'

Still a full caster, still second-fiddle to the Wizard, but still a full caster.

Anyway, rather than trying to amp up the sorcerer, how 'bout taking Spontaneous Casting away from the Wizard?

 

[gyor]

Hey, the sorcerer may not be the greatest class design ever, but it's not 'crap.'

Still a full caster, still second-fiddle to the Wizard, but still a full caster.

Anyway, rather than trying to amp up the sorcerer, how 'bout taking Spontaneous Casting away from the Wizard?

He wasn't talking about the Sorceror, he was talking about threads like these.

And the Sorceror does not play second fiddle to the Wizard and I say that as someone who originally kind of ignored the Sorceror compared to all the other classes.

Yes the Sorceror doesn't know as many spells as the Wizard, yes the Sorceror can't change his spell selection every day to whatever is in the Wizard's spell book like a Wizard, and so on.

Because the Sorceror isn't supposed to out Wizard the Wizard, the Sorceror is the Mutant the Scarlett Witch to the Wizard's Harry Potter.

The Wizard can select spells from a large list, that he can change up daily, but is nothing special at most of them out side of the ones in his or her school (or in case of the spellsinger exchanges his school for combat abilities, and so it a just normal at all spells).

But the Sorceror might not have all the daily choices that Wizard does, but whatever spells the Sorceror's does take the Sorceror is a master and can bend to her will, there is no spell that the Sorceror takes that does not have great meaning, and power.

Spells for the Wizard are formulas, with their schools offering tricks to improve ones skill at these formulas.

The Sorceror's spells are like their arm, it's instinctive, and you can use your arms and bend and rotate it in a variety of ways.

And the Sorceror's weakness is its asset as well in play. You don't have to pick from a zillion of choices every long rest, trying to figure out what you might need on a given day, which is why the Sorceror is better for new players then the Wizard or players, like me who doen't want to do that.

Every spell chosen by the Sorceror has great meaning, to a wizard its just another option.

The Sorceror is the Green Lantern to Wizards Batman's.

 

[Tony Vargas]

He wasn't talking about the Sorceror, he was talking about threads like these.

Ladies & gemtlemen, a round of applause for my straight man.

The Sorceror is the Green Lantern to Wizards Batman's.

I suppose a wizard's high INT might make him a better detective...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Instead of spending the Sorcery points on metamagic, the Sorceror can spend them on say creating extra 5th level spells, far more then the Wizard has excess too if the Sorceror burns lower level spell slots for sorcerory points.

That's a rather important caveat, and it means that you're not really talking about Font of Magic any more at all--you're just talking about the ability to convert low-level spell slots (at a loss!) to high-level slots.

The DMG doesn't seem to think much of that idea, from a balance perspective. The DMG seems to view it as pretty much a wash. The supposed drawback to using spell points instead of spell slots, according to the DMG, is not the extra power gained by spellcasters nor a concern about breaking encounter math--the drawback, we are advised, is that spell points are more complex. (They're not, but whatever.)

I happen to like 5th level spells quite a bit, but trading in all of your 1st-4th level spells to gain only four and a half 5th level spells is not nearly as attractive as simply using DMG spell points, if your DM offers that option. DMG spell points would give you a hair over seven 5th level spells in exchange--so you're trading in all of your low-level slots for something half as good as what the DMG considers a wash. Couple that with the Sorcerer's already-narrow spell list (he doesn't actually have access to the best 5th level spells, in my opinion, like Animate Dead V, Wall of Force, and Conjure Animals V) and I think you'll see why not many people get excited about Font of Magic's conversion ability, unless they happen to be sorlocks.

Sorlocks are of course a completely different story because they can bank arbitrarily-many spell slots over the course of multiple short rests via Font of Magic, if the DM lets that fly.

But the Sorceror might not have all the daily choices that Wizard does, but whatever spells the Sorceror's does take the Sorceror is a master and can bend to her will, there is no spell that the Sorceror takes that does not have great meaning, and power.

What metamagic do I employ as a sorcerer to get spells with the "great meaning and power" of Wall of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, or True Polymorph?

 

[Tony Vargas]

not really talking about Font of Magic any more at all--you're just talking about the ability to convert low-level spell slots (at a loss!) to high-level slots.
. .. trading in all of your 1st-4th level spells to gain only four and a half 5th level spells is not nearly as attractive as simply using DMG spell points, . DMG spell points would give you a hair over seven 5th level spells in exchange--so you're trading in all of your low-level slots for something half as good as what the DMG considers a wash.

Spell points don't seem like a wash, to me, because of the greater flexibility.

In fact, just giving the Sorcerer spell points wouldn't be a bad idea...
... combine that with taking spontaneous casting away from the prep casters, might not close the gap, exactly, but might help, and seems to fit..