D&D 5E A New Culture?

Hillsy7

First Post
And to be fair, the reverse attitude also exists, where *any* optimisation is seen as outrageous munchkinism. I remember, in the last days of 2e, I made a dwarven fighter (sooo should have been a ranger but 2e...) with a high con. This got me accused of being a power gamer...

Thankfully, most people are in the middle.... I hope!

Alas most people don't comment - Internet forums are disproportionately filled with people beyond the 2nd standard deviation of opinion.......

I think the "OMG Its dangerous out there!" conflates a +1 here or there with a totally gimped character. An analogy would be any risk being the same as running head long toward ancient dragon when you are 1st level.

It's kinda doubly ridiculous when you think there's an actual person there in control of the "dangers", and part of their job is to ensure the game is fun for everyone and as challenging as the players want it to be. Like D&D only has 1 difficulty setting (INSANE!) and the GM is incapable of adjusting that setting on the fly to make sure the fun/challenge balance remains in the goldilocks zone.

Yeah...that is absurd! What if I WANT to play a tough dwarf?! (Which I often have done!)

And in the reverse case - I soooo want to play a dwarf with rubbish Con who can't handle his drink and has been exiled from Dwarf society because of it, and has to drown his sorrows in milk......
 

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jasper

Rotten DM
I think I may be forgetting that other people have different play groups and hence different experiences. Perhaps that is what you are doing as well.

In the way back, we were kids and tried to have as much power as possible because its natural. Later, we took more risks (I am talking with AD&D 1st edition still) and have not looked back.

And in our group, taking a weird race and class combo was simply a part of the fun and rarely optimal. But they weren't totally weak with no bonuses or whatever.

There is just a lot of variability out there and I am just experiencing more of it due to sites like these. I don't doubt some groups feel pressure to be uber tough. I just don't think the game requires it unless the DM makes the challenges require it. It is all probably relative.

I think I had my head in the sand and played with more like-minded players. Hell, we played together for ages and recently started back up (I am talking decades of history). I bet we shaped one another's play styles...
So you saying that the people you started playing with in 1E are still the people you gaming with?
I am lucky to see my former gamers once a year if they live in town. And I have not see my high school gamers since 1984 (2 years after high school).
I been in the military and lived in military towns so I did have a lot of turn over in groups. So I had power gamers who would suicide their pc if they were not doing the most DPR and people bringing pcs similar to yours. But through the years the discussion was the same (dpr vs role player vs odd ball fun pc vs others) but the players changed.
Alright question for those playing over 10 years. Is your core players (say 60%) still the same?
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
So you saying that the people you started playing with in 1E are still the people you gaming with?
I am lucky to see my former gamers once a year if they live in town. And I have not see my high school gamers since 1984 (2 years after high school).
I been in the military and lived in military towns so I did have a lot of turn over in groups. So I had power gamers who would suicide their pc if they were not doing the most DPR and people bringing pcs similar to yours. But through the years the discussion was the same (dpr vs role player vs odd ball fun pc vs others) but the players changed.
Alright question for those playing over 10 years. Is your core players (say 60%) still the same?

I played with a next door neighbor who I have not seen in years but otherwise, yes, these are my grade school/high school pals.

I moved back to town after graduate school. Most of us had kids and there were some years without DnD. But we are back. We laugh about stupid things that happened in games nearly 30 years ago! Back then our grasp of rules may have been tenuous but still...

I realize this is probably not common. We were grade school pals, in eachothers weddings, the whole bit...

Now we are older, fatter and some are grayer. But we still like to roll the bones...

The best thing is that we do not do things that are overly selfish, PvP, or whatever. We are friends trying to share a fun time! And we have compatible playing styles, as you would imagine.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
Alas most people don't comment - Internet forums are disproportionately filled with people beyond the 2nd standard deviation of opinion.......



It's kinda doubly ridiculous when you think there's an actual person there in control of the "dangers", and part of their job is to ensure the game is fun for everyone and as challenging as the players want it to be. Like D&D only has 1 difficulty setting (INSANE!) and the GM is incapable of adjusting that setting on the fly to make sure the fun/challenge balance remains in the goldilocks zone.



And in the reverse case - I soooo want to play a dwarf with rubbish Con who can't handle his drink and has been exiled from Dwarf society because of it, and has to drown his sorrows in milk......

I agree on all counts. I guess that is part of my question. Since we DO have control of games, are people feeling pressure to make it "insane" dificulty?
 

Hillsy7

First Post
I agree on all counts. I guess that is part of my question. Since we DO have control of games, are people feeling pressure to make it "insane" dificulty?

I think the stressors between GMs and players when it comes to managing the ‘difficulty level’ revolves a lot around all sides playing the same sort of game.
I think GMs can get a little bit nervous when players are blowing through encounters easily because there’s one or two optimisers in the party, and the game is pitched at a more leisurely level. If someone starts disengaging because it’s too easy, then I think it’s totally understandable for a GM to start cranking up the difficulty so as to not “lose” that player. However, that becomes an issue if the other half of the party is more casual and looking for heavy RP, and so has less focused characters, and they start getting demoralised because the encounters.

I think it’s important for a GM to not be in a position where his group’s expectations are too far apart they finds themselves leaning on the difficulty lever because one player or another starts complaining because they aren’t getting the game they want. This pressurizes the GM into making changes, which can lead to a general tendency to hike up the difficulty by default.

I’ve Gm’d an online game where I had one player complaining his sorcerer was woefully underpowered and he couldn’t hit anything. In reality, he had one of the highest attack bonuses, he’d just rolled poorly for a few fights in a row, and the encounters were designed to be challenging and rare. It happens he just wanted his combat to be more towards loads of dice and high damage numbers, which is totally fine and lots of fun. But because it was an online game with strangers, I didn’t get my pitch right and he had differing expectations. I literally ended up building him Something focused entirely on Attack roll, and low in lots of other areas.

But that experience could easily have subconsciously altered my natural difficulty setting, all because one player made a hooooge fuss about his character. Thankfully now though I've learned enough tips and tricks to manage it better on the fly so I can use story and narrative to keep the threat level up, while decreasing the lethality if required.....
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'd agree with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] here, although with the acknowledgement that it's partly my fault.
The game being unfamiliar to you was entirely the game's fault (the designers knew full well they were writing for a core fanbase who had been playing the game since the fad years of the 80s) - witness 5e succeeding brilliantly in being familiar to us long-time D&Ders.
You talking the game down in spite of knowing that the facts contradict your talking points, that's entirely your fault.

I think this attitude really peaked in 4E and that is when the backlash started.
There was a backlash against 4e, but it was more - ultimately - about the feel, balance, and (lack of) familiarity with the new ed than about the playstyle it engendered, which was less RAW and player-Entitlement focused than 3e, and even a little 'troupe-style' in character (I saw Storyteller snobs who wouldn't touch D&D before take to 4e, for instance, because it didn't cramp their style).

"Feat taxes" were a 4E concept. Yes, 3e had feat chains required for getting seemingly superior feats like whirlwind attack (really not that great of a feat)
They were a flaw in both systems, but a rampant one once 4e got rolling and the designers, for some reason, even though they were issuing errata constantly, got the idea that they should add feats to paper-over shortfalls in their designs rather just fix the designs, and leave feats free for character customization.

You paid a steep price in 4E if you didn't take feats as the whole combat was balanced around rolling 10 or better to overcome a challenge and you could only do that by selecting certain feats.
That was wildly over-stated. The whole 'math error' and the Expertise feat-taxes to fix it were a pretty lame reaction to a pretty lame complaint. The campaign I played in the longest (am still playing in, in fact) has gone to Epic without the DM ever approving the Expertise feats, let alone the amped-up Essentials versions. Yeah, the PCs hit some monsters on a 13, some of the time. OTOH, they crit like mad and blow dailies in ever fight. The game just played /differently/ at different Tiers. Slap in the 'fix' and the numbers stay on a more consistent treadmill, and the game can get a little too easy at Epic.

taking a suboptimal character like a Halfling wizard or dwarf paladin was a big problem for certain builds. That thought process has carried over. Just look at the regarding penalizing attributes and you will see people arguing that no race should be treated as suboptimal
The gap between optimal & sub-optimal in 4e was narrow. Against-type characters worked easily - Half Orc wizard? there's one (Staff/Blood Mage/Eminence, for those in the 4e know) in that Epic campaign I mentioned, no Implement Expertise, no +2 racial to INT, no problem). Perk of a more-nearly balanced system.
5e isn't as neatly balanced among classes, but BA mutes the effect of a sub-optimal (numbers) build to an extent, not because you don't feel each missing +1 even more keenly with smaller numbers, but because it never crosses the line of overwhelming the d20 - the hardest-hitter in the party can still miss, you can still hit - the Expert can fail a check that you still have a shot (maybe a 1:10 shot) of making.

The lingering obsession with system mastery from 3.x/PF - the peak of the RAW-uber-alles/optimization phenomenon - meant there were plenty of folks who publically obsessed over optimization in 4e and still are in 5e, but the impact was lessened in the former because it was more robustly balanced, and in the latter because it's much less bloated. But it is a lingering obsession that's on its way out, and will probably stay that way for the foreseeable future unless 5e starts releasing player-facing supplements faster than it has been.

Nope. That's what people think. DMG pg 82: "When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0)."

So you did stop at zero unless you wanted to use an optional rule that could put you at -3.
Hmm... different interpretation than I'm used to. I recall seeing it read as, when brought to /exactly/ 0, or optionally 0 to -3, you start dying. Thus -4 was instant death. I rarely saw anyone stick to that, rather, they let you have a few rounds of 'bleeding' even if you dropped to -4 to -9 (I'd even let a player dropped to -10 have one round before dying, if I was in a good mood).

Negative con score instead of -10 wasn't an un-heard-of variant, either. But the whole damage-past-zero is 'wasted' thing? New with 4e, in a de-facto way, because of heal-from-0, AFAIK. 'Official' (you still counted negatives in 4e, they just rarely killed you and didn't matter for healing purposes) in 5e, unless you're knocked to negative your max hps in one shot, you're just at 0.


The desire to create an "effective build" was already there in D&D's culture. The desire for rewarding "system mastery" was already there. The genre of "rogue-like" games are essentially old school D&D games: you died trying to do a dungeon crawl so you would make another character and repeat the process. Repeat enough times and the optimization strategy comes out on top. There was a lot of early D&D, by most accounts, of being incredibly player vs. GM focused.
All truthy enough, though pre-internet (heck, pre-BBS), the community was a lot less monolithic, so, y'know, sounds truthy to me, given my neck of the woods. ;)

Of course, it wasn't 'system mastery' back then, it was 'skilled play' or 'player skill' or whatever, and 'build' was mainly a function of spells known, or if, for some reason, you weren't playing a magic-user, magic items obtained, neither being much under your control...


However, I was just startled to see what may be a new player buying into the idea that you can't play a half-orc wizard or whatever. That just seems so limiting!
It certainly seemed limiting back in the day when it was a hard-and-fast rule. ;) But, a /new/ player might have that attitude because he's read some on-line optimization guide (the things have been around since the early days of 3.5, if not 3.0), or because he thinks "wizards aren't uruk-hai, wizards are maiar." In the former case, bad on the system for making orcs sub-optimal wizards, in the latter case, good on the system for the same thing... ;)

The suggestion seems to be that this it is too risky! Too risky?! So your paladin never takes chances to save people either? Or your thief doesn't dare steal because he might be hit with a trap?
One of the open secrets of D&D is that it's an Heroic Fantasy RPG where the mechanics make 'heroic' actions, like fighting an ogre or navigating a trap-laden tomb, comparatively safe, for the PCs. Because heroes survive such things through author force, but PCs need the rules on their side.
 
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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Those things I take that you'd call "sub-optimal" choices? They're the optimal choices for the characters I'm making. Each & every one is carefully considered and chosen. I'm optimizing just as much as you are. We're just optimizing for different things.

This is the truest thing I've read today (and I also just read "5e is not a RAW system" and a bunch of higher ed research so the competition is pretty stiff) and I definitely plan on stealing this for the future.

I feel like the shift is more obvious in online RPG communities because of self-selection bias; there's a stereotype that the more "casual" gamer isn't going to spend their time on online message boards and is also more inclined to build characters based on their personal whims and fancies rather than any objective "optimization" while the "hardcore" gamers are going to be more inclined towards both system mastery and sharing (and arguing over) said mastery online. I... don't entirely buy that, nor do I buy the argument that it's the fault of any one edition of the game (or video games, for that matter). As has been pointed out, D&D's roots were in tactical wargaming which consisted of very little besides system mastery and optimizing strategy. It's been a part of the game for so long that my mind struggles to comprehend an RPG rulebook when it doesn't present a full chapter exclusively to combat mechanics.

The trouble comes when optimization forums become such echo chambers that it makes certain individuals feel like they hold the keys to the only objectively right way to play the game. And they treat any forum (and any question asked on such forums) as if they are an optimization forum. Don't get me wrong, the "badwrongfun" can go both ways, but I think it's fair to say that you hear a lot more moaning about "trap options" than you do about "munchkins", though that could just be this forum or a few other venues I've gone to (the RPG Stack Exchange, for example). Obviously there are a lot of different legitimate ways to engage with the game, including "optimization", but also including making different choices about character building and play.

I happen to think there's a lot more players like myself or the above-quoted ccs on forums such as these that optimize our experiences and characters in ways differently than building up bigger numbers. But we don't really argue about, say, whether Actor or Linguist are "better" feats because, well, that's not how we engage with the game in the first place. The better feat is whichever best matches your chosen character concept.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Alright question for those playing over 10 years. Is your core players (say 60%) still the same?

My Sunday group is.
We're all well settled with houses, families, stable jobs, etc. So we're not going anywhere anytime soon. :)
The core group is 4 of us and then 0-2 more players rotate in & out from our extended circles depending upon system being played, who's DMing, current schedule, or whatever.

The games down at the shop are a lot more variable. They've got 2-4 consistent people & then a constant turnover of new/other people.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
So you saying that the people you started playing with in 1E are still the people you gaming with?
I am lucky to see my former gamers once a year if they live in town. And I have not see my high school gamers since 1984 (2 years after high school).
I been in the military and lived in military towns so I did have a lot of turn over in groups. So I had power gamers who would suicide their pc if they were not doing the most DPR and people bringing pcs similar to yours. But through the years the discussion was the same (dpr vs role player vs odd ball fun pc vs others) but the players changed.
Alright question for those playing over 10 years. Is your core players (say 60%) still the same?

My newest players I started gaming with in the 1990's. Oldest in mid 80's.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So you saying that the people you started playing with in 1E are still the people you gaming with?
More or less, yes; with variances over the years.

Warpiglet said:
The best thing is that we do not do things that are overly selfish, PvP, or whatever.
We, on the other hand, do all of that from time to time. :)

We are friends trying to share a fun time! And we have compatible playing styles, as you would imagine.
Also true; only our compatible playing style includes now and then - in character - really pissing each other off, or worse. :)

Lan-"though at higher level with more dangerous dungeons, the PvP has cut back dramatically"-efan
 

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