D&D 5E Complete Revision of PHB Feats (wiki thread)

[TwoSix]

This is great progress! We need to remember that the player choosing the ASI is very likely to apply it to something that will benefit them. For example, although +1 prepared spell might seem circumstantial, it will be relevant a very high proportion of the time - maybe even 100% - for players choosing Intelligence. Similarly, the player choosing +2 Dexterity probably is using a finesse or ranged weapon that benefits fully.

For that reason I believe we have to assess it at say 5 circ. = 4 always. Essentially, asserting that 80% of the time the circumstantial is relevant. (Multiclassing unlocks excepted ofc.)

[Edited. I believe 5:4 is the largest discount that makes sense, for reasons [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] outlined.]

I would also point out that we can't really draw a one-to-one equivalence between attacks, saves, and skills. A +1 to hit is worth more than a +1 to damage. A +1 to damage is probably about equivalent to a +1 to saves. And a +1 to saves is worth more than +1 bonus to even several skills. (I mean, just as an example, Jack of All Trades is a nice bonus for bards, but no one is dipping Bard 2 just to get it.)

Fundamentally, combat ability is worth more than the other pillars (and even if you believe otherwise, that's the balance point the game must consider), and a bonus to something you're good at is always more valuable than a bonus to something you're terrible at.

 

[DeJoker]

The issue I see with over stating the power of a Feat is that then it becomes the go to option for nearly everyone rather than choice to enhance a concept character who is already "focused" on some aspect. This to say a Stat Increase is a General shotgun affect and while you get a lot of stuff you probably are not going to be able to benefit from all of that stuff easily. While most Feats are a precise laser gun and drill specifically into what someone is choosing to focus on making its impact perhaps at least twice that of a shotgun affect. Now I am not certain what number you were thinking about focusing on but 5:4 aspect and I suggested it be denoted as 3 majors or 6 minors or a combination of those. I stated this because it matches with probably the hottest go to Feat (from what I have heard) that being Magic Initiate. Of course there are a few others that good taken quite a lot by most players so the question becomes when did they take them? When did most players feel one of these feats was worth as much or more than a +2 to an Attribute (or its equivalent of 2 +1s to 2 Attributes)

Also keep in mind that if you pack to much into a Feat you blow the whole balance of the game out of the water and everyone gets proverbially soaked under shooting (at least initially) is always better than overshooting -- then it has to be thoroughly play tested to gauge its final affect on game play.

Note if it helps any I did stuff like this for 2nd Ed, which then I migrated to 3rd Ed by only changing the names of some of it because I already many of the things 3rd Ed had, then I did the same for 3.5 Ed and Pathfinder although for that one I had to jack up the overall power level of the character classes to get the same results, then finally we come to 5th Ed and low and behold they finally implement a magic system very similar to the one I designed all the way back in 2nd Ed -- granted the mucked up (in my opinion) by making far to many magic systems -- mine only has 2 magic systems and they work the same for everyone and the primary difference in those 2 magic system is just where that magic is coming from. So you either have Arcane (which works the same for all arcane spell casters) and Divine (which works the same for all divine prayer speakers). I still much prefer the simpler concept of just 2 magic systems however that would mean a major redesign of 5Es magic system and I am not sure I want to do that. I have already went through and did some Race balancing because that is broken -- I posted it here if you all would not mind perhaps giving me some feed back on it.

 

[clearstream]

The issue I see with over stating the power of a Feat is that then it becomes the go to option for nearly everyone rather than choice to enhance a concept character who is already "focused" on some aspect. This to say a Stat Increase is a General shotgun affect and while you get a lot of stuff you probably are not going to be able to benefit from all of that stuff easily. While most Feats are a precise laser gun and drill specifically into what someone is choosing to focus on making its impact perhaps at least twice that of a shotgun affect.

Also keep in mind that if you pack to much into a Feat you blow the whole balance of the game out of the water and everyone gets proverbially soaked under shooting (at least initially) is always better than overshooting -- then it has to be thoroughly play tested to gauge its final affect on game play.

I agree with your sense of caution. My sense for the overall balance is that most feats are under the desirable bar, and a few are over it. Great Weapon Master is the best example of that. It was taken 16 times over 26 groups (compared with Magic Initiate being taken 6 times). We're seeing Feats taken in about a 2:1 ratio to ASIs and that could be about right: characters get 3 picks over the most played levels and it feels correct to me that they should spend 1 of those on ability scores. A game balance where ASIs were taken more often than feats would be a less interesting one, I think, with fewer concept characters.

Overall my intent is emphatically not to power-creep feats. Rather it is to trim back the tall poppies and make as many feats as possible mechanically viable picks. So that players enjoy more real choices. A design goal is to fix "trap" feats, like Savage Attacker. My change to Great Weapon Master tones it down hugely. As does the one to Sharpshooter. On the other hand, Durable merges into Tough to put that feat just about exactly on the value of +2 Constitution.

I have already went through and did some Race balancing because that is broken -- I posted it here if you all would not mind perhaps giving me some feed back on it.

Can you give a link please?

 

[DeJoker]

Overall my intent is emphatically not to power-creep feats. Rather it is to trim back the tall poppies and make as many feats as possible mechanically viable picks.

Well that is something can concur with which I think you will see when you look at what I did with races. Now mind you I did not do all the races in the PHB because I do not tend to use them in my world but the concept application I did could easily be applied to the other races in all the books.

Can you give a link please?

Oh okay thought there was a method you could get to it by using my profile or something. It is over http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...sion-and-Other-Items-I-would-like-feedback-on

Apparently the BBCode for URLs works differently here and not sure how to change the window to let me see the ones they are using in place of the one I was trying to use.

 

[Istbor]

Mage Slayer (assists melee to predict and counter casters)
Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration. You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you.

Not sure why these stat bumps were associated with a feat that, to me, is typically picked up by a martial/melee class. Should a fighter or barbarian get excited about +1 to a secondary or dump stat? I can see if you have an odd number and I can imagine some classes/sub-classes (provided they may have an odd number in one of those options) getting excited about this, but overall, it just seems like an odd addition. Why not just +1 to any stat of your choice? That way it helps strictly martial characters, and more gish builds.

Edit: Typos and grammar.

 

[clearstream]

Not sure why these stat bumps were associated with a feat that, to me, is typically picked up by a martial/melee class. Should a fighter or barbarian get excited about +1 to a secondary or dump stat? I can see if you have an odd number. I can imagine some classes/sub-classes (provided they may have an odd number in one of those options) getting excited about this, but overall, it just seems like an odd addition. Why not just +1 to any stat of your choice? That way if helps strictly martial characters, and more gish builds.

Good spot. I can't help but agree with you. Stupid brain, what were you thinking? Perhaps limiting to Strength, Dexterity or Constitution however, rather than any stat. What's your feeling on that?

 

[Istbor]

Good spot. I can't help but agree with you. Stupid brain, what were you thinking? Perhaps limiting to Strength, Dexterity or Constitution however, rather than any stat. What's your feeling on that?

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the +1 of your choice. What harm would it bring? You are still only getting a +1, and it will support a wider range of builds an concepts. Both the superstitious Barbarian that wants to smash all wizards, and the sly bard who eats casters for breakfast.

 

[DeJoker]

Good spot. I can't help but agree with you. Stupid brain, what were you thinking? Perhaps limiting to Strength, Dexterity or Constitution however, rather than any stat. What's your feeling on that?

I would limit it to Dexterity as the whole concept is that you are reacting fast enough to attacking someone casting a spell

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the +1 of your choice. What harm would it bring? You are still only getting a +1, and it will support a wider range of builds an concepts. Both the superstitious Barbarian that wants to smash all wizards, and the sly bard who eats casters for breakfast.

How about proficiency in a saving throw rather than a +1 to an ability? Seems to fit better.

 

[TwoSix]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the +1 of your choice. What harm would it bring? You are still only getting a +1, and it will support a wider range of builds an concepts. Both the superstitious Barbarian that wants to smash all wizards, and the sly bard who eats casters for breakfast.

Since the reaction triggered is a melee weapon attack, Strength or Dexterity would make sense. Although there are shillelagh users or others who get caster stats to melee attacks, are they a limited enough subset of concepts that they should be left out? I'd vote for either A) Str or Dex, or B) any stat.

How about proficiency in a saving throw rather than a +1 to an ability? Seems to fit better.

That's interesting. We know from resilient that a save proficiency is worth about a +1 to a stat. The sticking point is that resilient can only be taken once, so there's a question as to whether being able to gain a 4th save proficiency (as such a feat would now allow) is worth more than gaining the 3rd. It would allow coverage of all three of the big saves, which isn't nothing. It's still probably OK, though, you'd be taking 2 feats to do it, and abilities like paladin's Aura of Protection and Monk's Diamond Soul are still way better.