D&D 5E Complete Revision of PHB Feats (wiki thread)

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So limiting the -5/+10 to short range would seem reasonable to me.

The idea so good I implemented it immediately...

 

[clearstream]

That's not bad; the wording is slightly awkward, but it's an awkward concept, so that may be unavoidable. As a the player of a sorcerer with empowered spell AND elemental adept, I can confirm that turning 1s into 2s is a very rare occurrence.

As that sorcerer player, how do you feel about the tweak? Warmer and happier?

 

[TwoSix]

As that sorcerer player, how do you feel about the tweak? Warmer and happier?

Yes, I certainly prefer your tweak better. The damage bonus is a fairly minor feature of the feat, so I don't think it needs any real boost. (Other than the +1 ASI, it does need that!) Just removing the conflict with one of the main classes that actually uses the feat is enough.

 

[DeJoker]

That's good feedback. +2 Constitution is worth +1 HP/level, +1 on the Con save and via that a +1 improvement in Concentration, an extra day without food, +1 on the roll against thirst, and +1 minute holding breath. +1 on a save is valued at half an ASI via the Resilient feat. The Constitution save is the most often used save (30% of all spell and monster ability saves listed in core rules). So we agree that +2 HP/level = +1 HP/level and +1 save. That leaves over all those other things! So could you agree that means Tough needs some additional (weak) benefits? Maybe merging in Durable (a trap feat) and adding the death save advantage is too much though? As I want to preserve as many of the effects that were in core as possible, it should probably just retain the Durable.

Okay that was with one Attribute I would be very interested in seeing them all

 

[DeJoker]

Currently to me the Magic Initiate (compared to the other original Feats) was worth 1.5 Feats as a single Cantrip appears to be equal to +1 to an Attribute and single 1st level spell is also equal to +1 Attribute even if it does not Scale ... because this is easily circumnavigatable by taking a 1st level spell that does not Scale such as Find Familiar that being said it means that the limitation of not scaling is to be ignored as being a limitation since it only applies circumstantially.

Of course I am hoping that vonklaude will produce that full list of what a +2 Attribute increase completely means to when apply to each of the 6 attributes (well 5 he already did Constitution)

I'm also probably in the minority in thinking that Magic Initiate is too weak; to my mind, any feat that I could replicate with a one level dip to get something straight up better isn't worth it. I'd prefer to see it with a +1 ASI.

 

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The problem I see with this is you are using a single Attribute example and maybe it in itself is imbalanced. Keep in mind while the designers might have done their best they are still only human that had deadlines and such. And its those deadlines and such that are often the cause of imbalances within a game. That being said I would love to see a full comparison of all the things you can get if you added a +2 to each Attribute because then you can see the full monty and decide what the average +2 to an Attribute should look like then in turn use that to gauge the relative power of each Feat. Personally in my mind, you cannot even approach redesigning feats until you have taken this step first.

Do you mean this

Strength = +1 to save (15%), attack, damage, manoeuvre DCs and athletics; unlocks chainmail, splint and plate; +2’ long jump, +1’ high jump, +15 lbs carrying; unlocks barbarian, fighter and paladin multiclass
Dexterity = +1 to save (25%), AC, initiative, attack, damage, manoeuvre DCs, acrobatics, sleight of hand, stealth and thieves’ tools; unlocks fighter, monk, ranger and rogue multiclass
Constitution = +1 to save (31%), HP/level, days without food, roll versus thirst, minutes holding breath
Intelligence = +1 to save (1%), spell attacks, spell DCs, prepared spells, arcana, gaming, history, investigation, nature and religion; unlocks Wizard multiclass
Wisdom = +1 to save (23%), spell attacks, spell DCs, prepared spells, animal handling, insight, medicine, perception and survival; unlocks cleric and druid multiclass
Charisma = +1 to save (5%), spell attacks, spell DCs, prepared spells, deception, intimidation, performance and persuasion; unlocks bard, paladin, sorcerer and warlock multiclass; an inspiration die for bards

 

[DeJoker]

Okay I have re-outlined that below with some caveats that you slightly overlooked and that being some of the bonuses are circumstantial which means they do not always apply for every character. While others are semi-circumstantial meaning while they do apply to every character not all characters will truly benefit from it. So equating them to something that IS useable by all classes would be a bad comparison.

+2 Strength

+1 to Save
+1 Maneuver DCs
+1 Athletics
+2' long jump, +1' high jump
+15 lbs carrying
Semi-Circumstantial

+1 Str Attack
+1 Str Damage
Might unlock chainmail, splint and plate
Might unlock barbarian, fighter and paladin multiclass​

+2 Dexterity

+1 to save
+1 AC
+1 initiative
+1 Maneuver DCs
+1 Acrobatics
+1 Sleight of Hand
+1 Stealth
+1 Thieves’ Tools
Semi-Circumstantial

+1 Dex Attack
+1 Dex Damage
Might unlock fighter, monk, ranger and rogue multiclass​

+2 Constitution

+1 to Save
+1 HP/level
+1 days without food
+1 roll versus thirst
+1 minutes holding breath​

+2 Intelligence

+1 to save
+1 Gaming Tools
+1 Arcana
+1 History
+1 Investigation
+1 Nature
+1 Religion​

Circumstantial​

+1 Spell Attacks
+1 Spell DCs
+1 Prepared Spells
Might unlock Wizard multiclass​

+2 Wisdom

+1 to Save
+1 Animal Handling
+1 Insight
+1 Medicine
+1 Perception
+1 Survival
Circumstantial

+1 Spell Attacks
+1 Spell DCs
+1 Prepared Spells
Might unlock cleric and druid multiclass​

+2 Charisma

+1 to Save
+1 Deception
+1 Intimidation
+1 Performance
+1 Persuasion
Circumstantial

+1 Spell Attacks
+1 Spell DCs
+1 Prepared Spells
Might unlocks bard, paladin, sorcerer and warlock multiclass​

 

[DeJoker]

Okay so looking at that we sort of get the following in a very generic sort of way -- now it is not exact but it is pretty close to what each Attribute scale increase nets you

Always

+1 Save
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill​

Circumstantially

+1 Attack
+1 Damage or DC
+1 Prepared Spell
Might Unlock Something​

Now one would have to decide are 2 Circumstantials equal an Always or does it take 4 Circumstantials to equal an Always
I am strongly leaning towards the 4 because that would net us 6 Always which could then be equated to 3 major slots or 6 minor slots or a mix of those two.

This would then explain the Magic Initiate -- as 2 Cantrips and 1 Non-scalable 1st Level Spell as that would be 3 major slots. Oh and before you start to go over board with that 1st level spell keep in mind that a non-scalable 1st level spell would be about the equivalent in power to a Cantrip while a Scalable 1st level spell would be worth well more than a Cantrip

 

[TwoSix]

Okay so looking at that we sort of get the following in a very generic sort of way -- now it is not exact but it is pretty close to what each Attribute scale increase nets you

Always

+1 Save
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill​

Circumstantially

+1 Attack
+1 Damage or DC
+1 Prepared Spell
Might Unlock Something​

Now one would have to decide are 2 Circumstantials equal an Always or does it take 4 Circumstantials to equal an Always
I am strongly leaning towards the 4 because that would net us 6 Always which could then be equated to 3 major slots or 6 minor slots or a mix of those two.

This would then explain the Magic Initiate -- as 2 Cantrips and 1 Non-scalable 1st Level Spell as that would be 3 major slots. Oh and before you start to go over board with that 1st level spell keep in mind that a non-scalable 1st level spell would be about the equivalent in power to a Cantrip while a Scalable 1st level spell would be worth well more than a Cantrip

I do have some quibbles with this. Saying that a stat bump only circumstantially impacts your attack and damage and spell DCs is underselling the consideration that a character won't have a stat bumped at random; the player will only be selecting stats that are the most useful to the character.

I mean, you can certainly balance around the assumption that a feat should only be roughly as useful as a a stat bump to a secondary or tertiary stat. Then you'll have feats that will appeal primarily to concept builders, and will generally only be selected around 12th or 16th level, once the primary stat is maxed. Or, for my own preference, you can balance feats so that they'll be competitive with a Dex bump for a Dex primary character, and there will be difficult choices at 4th or 8th level as to whether or not max your attack stat or take a feat.

 

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Okay so looking at that we sort of get the following in a very generic sort of way -- now it is not exact but it is pretty close to what each Attribute scale increase nets you

Always

+1 Save
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill
+1 Bonus to a Skill​

Circumstantially

+1 Attack
+1 Damage or DC
+1 Prepared Spell
Might Unlock Something​

Now one would have to decide are 2 Circumstantials equal an Always or does it take 4 Circumstantials to equal an Always
I am strongly leaning towards the 4 because that would net us 6 Always which could then be equated to 3 major slots or 6 minor slots or a mix of those two.

This would then explain the Magic Initiate -- as 2 Cantrips and 1 Non-scalable 1st Level Spell as that would be 3 major slots. Oh and before you start to go over board with that 1st level spell keep in mind that a non-scalable 1st level spell would be about the equivalent in power to a Cantrip while a Scalable 1st level spell would be worth well more than a Cantrip

This is great progress! We need to remember that the player choosing the ASI is very likely to apply it to something that will benefit them. For example, although +1 prepared spell might seem circumstantial, it will be relevant a very high proportion of the time - maybe even 100% - for players choosing Intelligence. Similarly, the player choosing +2 Dexterity probably is using a finesse or ranged weapon that benefits fully.

For that reason I believe we have to assess it at say 5 circ. = 4 always. Essentially, asserting that 80% of the time the circumstantial is relevant. (Multiclassing unlocks excepted ofc.)

[Edited. I believe 5:4 is the largest discount that makes sense, for reasons [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] outlined.]