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D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

smbakeresq

Explorer
Obviously communication is super important, yeah. But I don't know how, with the way 5e is designed, any class is really a liability. I mean, someone would have to REALLY go out of their way to make their PC a liability for the role that class typically plays because the core class features are effective. A fighter, with no bonuses from STR or DEX, is still an effective fighter because of things like heavy armor, action surge, etc. And since combat is only 1/3 of the game, if they chose to use ASIs or feats for all non combat related stuff, they'd still be able to contribute quite a bit to the overall game.

The problem is that some folks seem to think that non-optimized (or near optimized) means not effective. That's simply not true. Effective just means "successful in producing a desired or intended result." (that's literally the dictionary definition) It doesn't mean are you the best at it.

Along that line read Treantmonks opening to his wizard guide. Party members were dying all the time, he joined as a wizard that did no direct damage. Party members stopped dying and completed all their adventures, they thought his wizard was underperforming. They never got how effective he was.

Happens all the time.


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Okay, but if they fail and the party dies, then it's entirely your fault and everyone at the table will hold that against you forever. You chose to kill the party, and waste months of time for everyone at the table, because you didn't want to let someone else take their turn in the spotlight after they've explicitly declared their intent ahead of time (by building a character that is competent at the task). You just had to hog the spotlight, even though you knew that you might fail. I can't imagine such an inconsiderate player would be welcome at any table for long.
A fighter who increases their Charisma instead of a useful stat is a liability to the party, and they're going to get everyone killed. Don't be that player, who puts their own character quirks ahead of their responsibility as part of the team. Either build a functional character who is competent at their job, or go play a video game so you're not dragging down everyone else.

And even if you do have some selfish, self-absorbed player who increases their Charisma up to 16 (because they don't care who else suffers from their poor choices), they will still never be able to reliably hit DC 11. I don't know what kind of game you're running where anything that really matters to a level 17+ character will still be hinging on a DC 10 check.Sure, you can always invoke obscure optional rules, or make up new rules of your own, to address shortcomings within the system. That doesn't excuse the system, itself, for being faulty.
I do not believe that your attitude is representative of many D&D players.
Or that it is a good advertisement for the hobby to new players either.

To depict a member of one class who makes a type of skill check in such an unpleasant fashion goes far beyond "reasonable table expectations" and well into "outright bullying".
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
And yet there are DM's, actual ones, who will penalize characters of certain classes when trying to make checks "they shouldn't be good at/know anything about", like Barbarians making Arcana checks...
 

Gardens & Goblins

First Post
There's a lot of insecure/lacking in confidence (Cha 8) fighters in the fantasy world, each doing their part, one dead dragon at a time.

I, and my beautiful relatively-unsullied royal bride, thank them for their brave efforts.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Why do they need to be the best at these things to allow them to contribute?
There's contribute in the balanced team-play sense, and there's 'shine' in the spotlight-balanced sense. Out of combat, any warm body can contribute with the occasional untrained/modest-stat d20 check; in combat, any body (it needn't even be warm, it can be a necromancers animated minion, for instance) can contribute by taking up a space where an enemy might optimally have wanted to stand, soaking up some attacks, and/or swinging and hoping for a high roll - that's the wonder of BA.

In combat, every class can offer more than just a temperature-optional-body contribution without even trying - every class gets decent hps & proficiency in a fair selection of weapons, and/or adequate enough combat cantrips as an at-will combat baseline, and plenty more on top of that depending on the class and the choices they made at chargen/level-up (or even that morning for the prepped casters). Every single class.

The same is very nearly true of the other two pillars: every class has some perks in either exploration or social (if not both), most have some flexible resources that can go either way (including prepped casters making that choice after every long rest), and if they do lack much of anything in one remaining pillar, a background might cover it to an adequate degree to get by - you're only sitting out one a pillar of you intentionally neglect it.
Except for the fighter & barbarian, they get virtually nothing from their classes outside of combat ability - they can use their Background (as can everyone else) to get a little modest ability in one other pillar (you can take Outlander to be better at exploration in the wilderness, or Criminal to be better at skulking around and opening locks in cities & dungeons, for instance), or compromise their builds to devote a better-than-usual score to a tertiary stat like CHA, but outside of that they're looking at warm-body 'contribution' some substantial fraction of the time (depending on the emphasis of the campaign, of course).
No class is ever that put out in the combat pillar.

The Fighter is permitted to increase his/her CHA. One may select feat to allow one to pursue/assist in the social pillar.
Yep, the fighter can put one of his bonus ASI's into a feat like Actor or a +2 CHA, or, hey, sink both of them into getting both. Again, that's the original point. Now he's maybe up to par in the social pillar, but he's not optimizing his DPR as fiercely, and he's got nothing left to invest in exploration.

In general, I agree that Charisma is an unusual choice for a Fighter, and it probably shouldn't be an ability score given priority since it does a lot less for a Fighter than it does, say, a Sorcerer. SOME Fighter builds can benefit from Charisma, though to a lesser degree than other classes.
It really would have made a lot of sense for the fighter to get some non-combat features that keyed off charisma, because, in concept, the fighter is easily the most-relateable class, as has been eloquently argued, already:
Except, of course, that in-play many of those other classes are going to find themselves strongly prejudiced against in many (but not all) social situations.

The primitive barbarian savage, demon-worshipping warlock, thieving rogue, meddling wizard, bestial druid, self-righteous paladin, unworldly monk etc., are all facing an uphill battle no matter how great their CHA is.
It would hardly be out of line for fighters to attract a band of followers like they did back in the day - and, under BA, they'd actually be /useful/ for the first time. ;)
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
And yet there are DM's, actual ones, who will penalize characters of certain classes when trying to make checks "they shouldn't be good at/know anything about", like Barbarians making Arcana checks...

How is that possible in 5e? A DC value is a DC value no matter who attempts the check. A DM who changes the DC of something just because of the class is a pretty crappy DM. I imagine they are quite rare as well, as I have never seen a DM do that in 35 years of gaming. A DM is a referee (says so right in the AD&D books, and that's what the job was called before DM became common). A referee is impartial and fair.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
How is that possible in 5e? A DC value is a DC value no matter who attempts the check. A DM who changes the DC of something just because of the class is a pretty crappy DM. I imagine they are quite rare as well, as I have never seen a DM do that in 35 years of gaming.

I have seen a DM penalize a player on a tracking check because the player was using mundane tracking and the DM felt that because the NPCs used magical means to cover their tracks the player would have a harder time - even though the "harder time" was already factored into the difficulty of the check. This was Deadlands HoE not 5e but the principle is exactly the same.I gave this game about 3 sessions before bailing because this kind of nonsense was going on ALL the time - but it does happen.

A DM is a referee (says so right in the AD&D books, and that's what the job was called before DM became common). A referee is impartial and fair.

a referee is supposed to be impartial and fair. This is not a semantic or pedantic distinction, there are plenty of ones out there that are not - It's not always trivially easy to find a good DM!
 


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