D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

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Because you have the wrong color skin?

No, of course not. Because I haven't had the same experiences, I haven't been personally affected by the perpetuation of these stereotypes, I don't and can't see something like the treatment of Chult in ToA the same way, and because the most important voice to hear is the one who has had those experiences, has been personally affected by the stereotypes, and who therefore has something unique, and personal, and insightful to say about the material. Because that was the voice no one listened to when ToA was developed. Plenty of voices like mine had their say.
 

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shoak1

Banned
Banned
Translation: If you're white and have empathy for minorities, and want them not to be minimized—you're a bad, pathetic person.
Translation: You black people have to jump through hoops that white people don't have to.
Translation: Sucks to be you. lulz
Translation: I don't care about your problems and criticisms, you're upsetting my delicate sensibilities. And that's more important than your experiences.

I grew up in a trailer park. I also had the distinct disadvantage of being born a white male. Thus, while the State was handing out +5 to +15 points on their employment tests to minorities and women, I got +0 free points. I had to do better on the tests for employment just to get the same score. And nobody was clamoring to hire me to increase their "diversity" score (a liberal term used to promote racism against white males). When I clawed my way to college and got the book for grants and scholarships available, only 5% of the grants/scholarships were available to white males. I elected to choose Native American history as my specialty because I was told - by my professors - that if I wanted to get a job in academia as a white male I had to pick a "progressive" field - aka - study minorities. As an adult, the television shows I watch have disproportionately high numbers of minorities and sexual orientations present because if any race/culture/sex is underrepresented except white males, they will face severe backlashes. When I go to comedy shows, white men are made fun of in disproportionately high numbers compared to minorities or women, as they are in commercials (white men are "free game" to ridicule). All the while, in industries where white males are "underrepresented" - like the NBA or child care, nobody clamors to have the imbalance corrected.

As a white male I have had every disadvantage in life so spare me your liberal nonsensical fantasies about insensitivity to minorities and keep your politically correct garbage out of this game forum.
 


Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I grew up in a trailer park. I also had the distinct disadvantage of being born a white male. Thus, while the State was handing out +5 to +15 points on their employment tests to minorities and women, I got +0 free points. I had to do better on the tests for employment just to get the same score. And nobody was clamoring to hire me to increase their "diversity" score (a liberal term used to promote racism against white males). When I clawed my way to college and got the book for grants and scholarships available, only 5% of the grants/scholarships were available to white males. I elected to choose Native American history as my specialty because I was told - by my professors - that if I wanted to get a job in academia as a white male I had to pick a "progressive" field - aka - study minorities. As an adult, the television shows I watch have disproportionately high numbers of minorities and sexual orientations present because if any race/culture/sex is underrepresented except white males, they will face severe backlashes. When I go to comedy shows, white men are made fun of in disproportionately high numbers compared to minorities or women, as they are in commercials (white men are "free game" to ridicule). All the while, in industries where white males are "underrepresented" - like the NBA or child care, nobody clamors to have the imbalance corrected.

As a white male I have had every disadvantage in life so spare me your liberal nonsensical fantasies about insensitivity to minorities and keep your politically correct garbage out of this game forum.

You've been here for 10 years, and you decided today was the day to die on this hill and post this rant opposing inclusivity on my website? Not acceptable.

I'd say "please review the rules", but there's not much point, because I'm showing you the door. This showed an appalling lack of character.

Everybody else, please do not reply to shoak1; he can't respond.
 

As a white male I have had every disadvantage in life so spare me your liberal nonsensical fantasies about insensitivity to minorities and keep your politically correct garbage out of this game forum.

I've considered your demands and here are my responses to each, in order: no, no and no.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No, of course not. Because I haven't had the same experiences, I haven't been personally affected by the perpetuation of these stereotypes, I don't and can't see something like the treatment of Chult in ToA the same way, and because the most important voice to hear is the one who has had those experiences, has been personally affected by the stereotypes, and who therefore has something unique, and personal, and insightful to say about the material. Because that was the voice no one listened to when ToA was developed. Plenty of voices like mine had their say.

Can you define 'those experiences' and 'the stereotypes' in any way that doesn't refer to skin color? Because it seems you've thrown up a wall of words that comes out to the same place. For instance, a respected scholar on sub-Saharan cultures wouldn't meet your criteria if they'd not suffered the stereotypes or experiences you're using to define who should be talking.

Have we completely discarded the marketplace of ideas, and moved to only those with the correct pedigree of experience should be sought for input? Pedigrees we're using skin color as a marker for?

Again, there's definite systemic and overt racism left in the US. But retreating into a mindset where deference is placed on skin color for who has preference of comment is going in the wrong direction.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
So I need to correct this (also, hearsay?).

To paraphrase Dr. House, "It's never slander." Slander refers to oral communications (and/or in-person communications, such as a nod of the head), and not even all of those. Libel refers to published and written communications (and, in many states, oral communications by radio or television are "published," and therefore libel). Both libel and slander are types of defamation.

But it's also wasn't defamation, which (in America) implies falsity. Bonus fun fact- that's a recent (in historical terms) development; the old rule was, "The greater the truth, the greater the libel." Anyway, what you're thinking of is Hulk Hogan (Bollea) and his suit again Gawker media (and others, including the journalist and owner) for publishing the intercourse video of Mr. Bollea with his friend's wife along with the accompanying article (re: cheating, adultery, boasting of ...ahem ... prowess).

This was not defamation (none of it was untrue), but was brought under separate causes of action (intrusion upon seclusion, misappropriation, intentional infliction of emotional distress). In addition, for reasons to complicated to go into here, the case was badly mismanaged by the trial judge (who was reversed on an earlier injunction, and made a number of very bad rulings in the case) as well as Gawker's attorneys. Finally, Gawker was never "shut down," instead, due to the artful pleading of the Plaintiff's counsel, there was no coverage by Gawker's insurance, and because of the bizarre verdict, lack of remittitur (again, trial judge), and way the appellate process works via bond, it was better from a cost/benefit standpoint to sell off the company and settle the claim (for 1/5 of the verdict value) than to go through the bankruptcy process and appeal. The last issue is the most important; after the verdict, it was revealed that this was one of a number of cases against Gawker media being bankrolled by Peter Thiel (at a cost of at least $10 million) with the express purpose of shutting them down- in effect, it was a global settlement of all the cases effectuated by selling off the parent company because the litigation costs were too extreme when a billionaire was financing continuous litigation against them. The legal system isn't perfect- enough cases, eventually one gets through like this- this is why you see nuisance settlements, not just because it costs money to litigate, but also because there's no such thing as a guaranteed victory.

I interject this because your statement is akin to saying, "OJ Simpson was declared innocent by a jury of arson!" It's a jarring statement because it doesn't understand what really happened, and misstates both the legal issues (it wasn't arson, juries don't declare someone innocent ... well, not in America) as well as leaving an impression that isn't fully correct (as Mr. Simpson was later found, by a preponderance of the evidence, to have committed the unlawful acts in a civil tort action).

The case itself raised serious and continuing issues regarding the First Amendment, the ability of wealthy individuals (or groups) to finance lawsuits against entities they don't like and effectively destroy them through the legal system (and also barratry, champerty, and maintenance), the responsibility of journalists in the internet age, forum shopping, the differences between state and federal court, bond practice on appeal, jackpot juries, the availability, scope, and use of anti-SLAPP statutes in different jurisdictions, and, for that matter, journalistic standards and practices. None of these issues have easy answers; but understanding the facts of it help inform our ability to understand the issues.

And for those of us who aren't lawyers and don't necessarily care about the details, my statement was sufficient enough to make a point. Do I appreciate that there's additional merit in being very specific? Sure I do. Do I think that what you've posted is relevant? Sure I do.

Do I appreciate that for your own reasons and needs that you needed to correct something? Sure. Did I need you to do so? Not at all. Fundamentally, I avoided typing a book to make a point that's still valid at the end of the day relative to the discussion we were having.

Be well.
KB
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Because you have the wrong color skin?

I mean, there's plenty of room to do a better job, sure, and there's lots of good things said in this thread on the topic, and some unfortunately bad things, but Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!

While I recognize that there's lots of ground to cover before the US gets to parity with minorities, the idea that acceptable knowledge can ever be based on melanin levels just staggers me. It's a step backwards. Good ideas are good ideas regardless of what color skin you have, just as bad ideas and bad regardless. If we're going to judge the success of a product at producing an outcome by considering the racial makeup of the creators, we need to re-examine what we're claiming our goals are.

I think the point you're missing is that someone who is black* has a far better chance to notice that something is tone deaf, comes across as insensitive, stereotyped, or what not because of their personal experience of being black and facing these sorts of things throughout their lives. This isn't that someone that works on an African-inspired work can't be non-black, it just that inclusion of black individuals will help ensure that it won't inadvertently hit the "wrong notes" so to speak. I mean, blacks (by nature of their being black and their life experience) have a far better chance of noticing something that comes across as offensive to blacks than anyone who is not black—that's just logic.

* You can switch out black for just about any race, ethnicity, culture, religion, or anything else that makes one different about depictions of their group and this still holds true.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I grew up in a trailer park. I also had the distinct disadvantage of being born a white male. Thus, while the State was handing out +5 to +15 points on their employment tests to minorities and women, I got +0 free points. I had to do better on the tests for employment just to get the same score. And nobody was clamoring to hire me to increase their "diversity" score (a liberal term used to promote racism against white males). When I clawed my way to college and got the book for grants and scholarships available, only 5% of the grants/scholarships were available to white males. I elected to choose Native American history as my specialty because I was told - by my professors - that if I wanted to get a job in academia as a white male I had to pick a "progressive" field - aka - study minorities. As an adult, the television shows I watch have disproportionately high numbers of minorities and sexual orientations present because if any race/culture/sex is underrepresented except white males, they will face severe backlashes. When I go to comedy shows, white men are made fun of in disproportionately high numbers compared to minorities or women, as they are in commercials (white men are "free game" to ridicule). All the while, in industries where white males are "underrepresented" - like the NBA or child care, nobody clamors to have the imbalance corrected.

As a white male I have had every disadvantage in life so spare me your liberal nonsensical fantasies about insensitivity to minorities and keep your politically correct garbage out of this game forum.

So I'm a white male that lost both parents before the age of 10 and had to work my way through school through the same system you have. Somehow I managed to get 4 degrees and make six figures. Why am I not supporting your argument?

Don't be a jerk. Someone always has it worse than you. If you don't like the hand you were dealt, it's on you to bootstrap.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I grew up in a trailer park. I also had the distinct disadvantage of being born a white male. Thus, while the State was handing out +5 to +15 points on their employment tests to minorities and women, I got +0 free points. I had to do better on the tests for employment just to get the same score. And nobody was clamoring to hire me to increase their "diversity" score (a liberal term used to promote racism against white males). When I clawed my way to college and got the book for grants and scholarships available, only 5% of the grants/scholarships were available to white males. I elected to choose Native American history as my specialty because I was told - by my professors - that if I wanted to get a job in academia as a white male I had to pick a "progressive" field - aka - study minorities. As an adult, the television shows I watch have disproportionately high numbers of minorities and sexual orientations present because if any race/culture/sex is underrepresented except white males, they will face severe backlashes. When I go to comedy shows, white men are made fun of in disproportionately high numbers compared to minorities or women, as they are in commercials (white men are "free game" to ridicule). All the while, in industries where white males are "underrepresented" - like the NBA or child care, nobody clamors to have the imbalance corrected.

As a white male I have had every disadvantage in life so spare me your liberal nonsensical fantasies about insensitivity to minorities and keep your politically correct garbage out of this game forum.
I sympathize with the rudimentary conditions into which you were born. But "every disadvantage?" Not even close. John Salczi has an interesting analogy for you: "White male" is the easiest setting on the game of life:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-setting-follow-up/
https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/23/final-notes-for-lowest-difficulty-setting/

Those "5-15 free points" you're complaining about? They're dished out because white males are given +30 on they day they were born. You want diversity points to go away, then you have to level admissions processes all around: get rid of bonus points for being "a legacy", references from the high & mighty, etc. My Dad served on a college admissions board: there are many points categories that are simply not available to minorities due to the history of racism in the past.

I won't burden the thread with the decades of peer reviewed research showing how comparatively more difficult it is for women and minorities to get and keep employment and other speed bumps like redlining or sundown towns, but it's out there.

I was born to a poor black doctor and his schoolteacher wife- their first house- all 400sq ft of it- was decorated with racial epithets shortly after we moved in. He was the first black to graduate from his medical school...because he was the first to be permitted to enter. Before him, all minority applicants' paperwork was binned without consideration. He's now in the upper 6% financially and has a nice house. Occasionally he still gets refused service.

I'm now a lawyer with other degrees besides...and I still get ignored in car dealerships, followed by store detectives, stopped for DWB, etc. I was contemplating a 3 series BMW and a salesman walked right past me to a white couple entering the door on my heels. A Toyota dealership refused me a test drive. At Cadillac, another customer gave me his keys, thinking I was an employee.
 
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