D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

[Lychee of the Exch.]

I am glad that the affronts that you have experienced have been things that you could shake off. But you have used some language here that is really kind of awful, because you are insinuating things about others' experiences.

I am not insinuating anything. I am just not taking other people's experiences as if they provide some unassailable proof of the way the universe is.

Why should I ? Because they really feel what they feel ?

As human beings, we all really feel what we feel.

For example, the majority of educated white people of the XIXth century felt that black people were some kind of primitive beings, defined by their close proximity to animals.

That's what they felt. So what a progressive man or woman of the XIXth century was supposed to do about these feelings ? Would it have been right for these progressives to not defend the cause of the black people simply because their fellow whites could then have said to them: "You know, I really feel that black people are sub-humans. That's been my experience of them all my life. You really offend me by denying my experience. You're really being foolish and impolite, and I won't discuss with you any further".

That you, me, or anyone else feel something does not mean we're right or wrong in any objective way. Logic, reflexive thought and analysis are needed too to make sense of the world, and relying only on our feelings to do that would plunge us into hysterical chaos.

But in confronting our different worldviews, we could come to a point where they are not mutually exclusive.

I think that black people are people like every other people. I think people are people and they should be treated like they deserve, based on their actions - and with kindnesse, love and understanding because the world is a better place with those emotions in it.

I'm not gonna tiptoe around black people, or people of wathever color, because they are or have been victims of grave injustices, and so are essentially and forever victims deserving of special treatment. I'm not gonna take everything they say uncritically because that's their experience.

In other words, people of whatever color are not essentially victims, and I am not their savior nor their torturer (the "karpman drama triangle" may be of use here for you to understand what I'm talking about).

 

[Azzy]

Liberal self-loathing white guilt creates these issues. //firstworldproblems lol....its all silliness. Just play the game.

Translation: If you're white and have empathy for minorities, and want them not to be minimized—you're a bad, pathetic person.

If you are black and want a job designing games and want to focus on black culture, go apply for one.

Translation: You black people have to jump through hoops that white people don't have to.

Probably a bad move though because most gamers are white and won't be that receptive to black culture games. But go for it. Whatever.

Translation: Sucks to be you. lulz

But please quit whining.

Translation: I don't care about your problems and criticisms, you're upsetting my delicate sensibilities. And that's more important than your experiences.

 

[Alexemplar]

On another note I'm curious, has anyone read through or purchased the Southlands campaign setting by Kobold Press and if so what did you think of it?

I've read their Pathfinder adaptation. I'm not surprised that there's a lot of Egyptian/Near Eastern influences which can make it redundant with a lot of settings that already cover those kinds of places, but it still has a lot of useful material for Sub-Saharan African-style places.

 

[Imaro]

I've read their Pathfinder adaptation. I'm not surprised that there's a lot of Egyptian/Near Eastern influences which can make it redundant with a lot of settings that already cover those kinds of places, but it still has a lot of useful material for Sub-Saharan African-style places.

Cool, thanks. I bought it awhile ago and was wondering if it'd be worth the read (it's a pretty massive tome) to convert it to 5e. I'll take a look and see if I like it.

 

[Azzy]

On another note I'm curious, has anyone read through or purchased the Southlands campaign setting by Kobold Press and if so what did you think of it?

On a similar bout of curiosity, I'd like know what people thought about the treatment of Greyhawk's Hepmonoland as presented in The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement (from the 90s). It is has the unfortunate colonialism thing going on (as perpetrated by an objectively evil, racist organization—the titular Scarlet Brotherhood). It also has a Mezoamerican analogue competing with an African analogue (and also Yuan-ti) in the northern, jungle area.

 

[Azzy]

If we applied the Chultan treatment to Kara Tur…

Shao Lin Monks, Japanese Samurai, Warring states Warlords, nomadic northern Asians, south-Asian Kingdoms, etc would all be from a single island/peninsula populated by Hollywood style Japanese people, covered in mountains and bamboo forests, all speak pseudo-Cantonese and they would all worship Buddha. The only safe place in this dangerous savage land would be the safe port established by foreign powers reminiscent of British owned Hong Kong or Admiral Perry’s fleet.

If anything, Kara-Tur suffers from going too far in the the opposite direction—it's composed entirely (and sometimes lazily) on 1:1 analogues to historical cultures (including two Chinas, two Japans, a Korea, a Mongolia, a Tibet, a Manchuria/Northeast Asia, an Indochina/Southeast Asia, and an Indonesia), with 1:1 analogues to Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto.

 

[Alexemplar]

If anything, Kara-Tur suffers from going too far in the the opposite direction—it's composed entirely (and sometimes lazily) on 1:1 analogues to historical cultures (including two Chinas, two Japans, a Korea, a Mongolia, a Tibet, a Manchuria/Northeast Asia, an Indochina/Southeast Asia, and an Indonesia), with 1:1 analogues to Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto.

I'd be inclined to agree, but Chult/sub-Saharan Africa doesn't even get that level of consideration. Yeah, I'm actually kind of envious of Kara Tur in that regard.

 

[Greg Benage]

Then what is the alternative?

Does Chult become based solely on a single African tribe during a specific time frame? Does it become just another part of the Sword Coast that has knights and castles and full-plate, just everyone with darker skin? Does it get a culture unlike anything on Earth (akin to Wakanda in Marvel)? Does Chult just never get another mention other than a paragraph in a hypothetical FR campaign setting in an "also exists" section (along with Kara Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara)? Does Chult stop having human culture is instead only filled with fantasy races (like aarakrocka and tabaxi) to avoid cultural stereotyping altogether?

Come on, man. The article itself suggests different approaches that could have been taken. And the real point of the article is that Wizards could have found plenty of black gamers who would have been enthusiastic about sharing their insights and ideas, but Wizards didn't bother to do that. I have my own ideas (mainly creating a rich, vibrant and diverse civilization rather than a monolithic pseudo-pan-African pastiche culture steeped in harmful stereotypes), but my ideas aren't the ones Wizards needed to seek out.

 

[Azzy]

I'd be inclined to agree, but Chult/sub-Saharan Africa doesn't even get that level of consideration. Yeah, I'm actually kind of envious of Kara Tur in that regard.

Oh, I agree.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Come on, man. The article itself suggests different approaches that could have been taken. And the real point of the article is that Wizards could have found plenty of black gamers who would have been enthusiastic about sharing their insights and ideas, but Wizards didn't bother to do that. I have my own ideas (mainly creating a rich, vibrant and diverse civilization rather than a monolithic pseudo-pan-African pastiche culture steeped in harmful stereotypes), but my ideas aren't the ones Wizards needed to seek out.

Because you have the wrong color skin?

I mean, there's plenty of room to do a better job, sure, and there's lots of good things said in this thread on the topic, and some unfortunately bad things, but Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!

While I recognize that there's lots of ground to cover before the US gets to parity with minorities, the idea that acceptable knowledge can ever be based on melanin levels just staggers me. It's a step backwards. Good ideas are good ideas regardless of what color skin you have, just as bad ideas and bad regardless. If we're going to judge the success of a product at producing an outcome by considering the racial makeup of the creators, we need to re-examine what we're claiming our goals are.

To head things off, I agree WotC took a lazy way out -- there's plenty of source material to produce multiple coexisting cultures based on historical sub-Saharan cultures. And they made some pretty obvious missteps (Mad Monkey Disease, clearly). The jettisoning of lots of cultural baggage in the current version of Chult is a positive step forward from the past, but it could have been lots better with a simple pass from someone paying attention -- regardless of skin color.