D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Maxperson]

I would have imagined that it would be hard to make magical weapons like Sting if you had no one that could use magic of some sort.

Elves were different. They had inherent magic which appeared in their creations such as Sting and the Rings of Power.

 

[neq.the.glockenspiel]

Without skimming the entire epic thread: "dungeons"? Was a "dungeon" a subterranean treasure reality show before Bilbo went to goblin town and Erebor?


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[Hriston]

Yes, and they sailed off to conquer Aman

Many of them had already settled in Middle-earth as well.

The ones who were faithful were the families of Elendil and his sons. Those are the ones who left in the ships. There were probably some servants and such, but by the time of Lord of the Rings, intermarrying would have given most, if not all of the Dunedain the blood of Elros.

This just isn't true. The house of the Stewards of Gondor, for example, which included Denethor and his sons Boromir and Faramir, was not descended from Elros, although they were of noble blood. Nevertheless, they enjoyed long lives.

I'm not confusing anything.

You certainly are. You're claiming that the longevity of the Dunedain is attributable to non-human ancestry, ignoring that the majority of the Dunedain who lived in both the Second and Third Ages were not descended from Elros, and yet had longer lives than "lesser men".

The ones who settled the mainland were also Black Numenoreans, and not Dunedain. Only the faithful became Dunedain, and the faithful were the families of Elendil and his sons.

I see this has devolved into a semantics debate. Perhaps it was from the beginning. I had assumed that by Dunedain you had meant the race of people to which Aragorn belonged. They were the people of Numenor and included any people that had its origin on that island, including the Black Numenoreans, although they became mingled with the Haradwaith they lived among, just as the Dunedain of Gondor intermarried with other men of that region. You seem, however, to be attempting to redefine Dunedain to mean only descendants of Elros through Elendil. I would hardly call that a race. By the end of the Third Age, I doubt there were any members of that group left besides Aragorn himself. My intent here wasn't to debate the meaning of the word Dunedain with you, however, and I do not intend to continue to do so.

 

[Maxperson]

Many of them had already settled in Middle-earth as well.

None of them were faithful, so none were Dunedain.

This just isn't true. The house of the Stewards of Gondor, for example, which included Denethor and his sons Boromir and Faramir, was not descended from Elros, although they were of noble blood. Nevertheless, they enjoyed long lives.

They were not Dunedain. They had some of the blood, and it ran almost true in Denethor who had some of the Dunedain mind abilities, but none of them were pure, and so were not Dunedain.

You certainly are. You're claiming that the longevity of the Dunedain is attributable to non-human ancestry, ignoring that the majority of the Dunedain who lived in both the Second and Third Ages were not descended from Elros, and yet had longer lives than "lesser men".

The blood gave them far longer lives than even the common Numenoreans.

I see this has devolved into a semantics debate. Perhaps it was from the beginning. I had assumed that by Dunedain you had meant the race of people to which Aragorn belonged.

It's not semantics. Tolkien explicitly changed the name of the race of the faithful from Numenoreans, to Dunedain, so why would I refer to Dunedain as Numenoreans?

You seem, however, to be attempting to redefine Dunedain to mean only descendants of Elros through Elendil. I would hardly call that a race. By the end of the Third Age, I doubt there were any members of that group left besides Aragorn himself. My intent here wasn't to debate the meaning of the word Dunedain with you, however, and I do not intend to continue to do so.

Incorrect. I'm not re-defining anything. The race known as Dunedain, which came from the Numenoreans, was comprised of Elendil, his sons, and their families, which makes them all royal. You're trying to conflate Dunedain with Numenorean, and are confusing yourself in this conversation. I'm using the terms as Tolkien used them.

 

[pemerton]

In DnD if you pray and your prayer is answered then there is no guarantee that you are a Cleric.

As you say, thats just how DnD works.

I've read your back-and-forth with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and I can't tell if you're serious or not.

In D&D the ability to have one's prayers answered is a class ability. If you're not of the right class (be that clerric, paladin, etc) then you can pray, but there is no system beyond GM fiat for the answering of your prayers.

I don't see how this is any different from warlords (and bards, etc) and inspiration. Why is treating inspiration as a class ability more egregious than treating praying as a class ability?

(And [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - alll the stuff that you point to, that can be used to separate praying from class abilities, could equally be used for inspiration.)

 

[Maxperson]

(And [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - alll the stuff that you point to, that can be used to separate praying from class abilities, could equally be used for inspiration.)

It could. Lots of ways to play it in D&D. That's one of the great things about the game.

 

[Shasarak]

I've read your back-and-forth with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and I can't tell if you're serious or not.

In D&D the ability to have one's prayers answered is a class ability. If you're not of the right class (be that clerric, paladin, etc) then you can pray, but there is no system beyond GM fiat for the answering of your prayers.

I don't see how this is any different from warlords (and bards, etc) and inspiration. Why is treating inspiration as a class ability more egregious than treating praying as a class ability?

(And [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - alll the stuff that you point to, that can be used to separate praying from class abilities, could equally be used for inspiration.)

Ok, so what would the Warlord class add to an Aragorn character that you could not get through the other classes that also give Inspiration?

 

[pemerton]

Ok, so what would the Warlord class add to an Aragorn character that you could not get through the other classes that also give Inspiration?

Which other classes? I made a post about Aragorn in 4e. There are no other 4e classes that give inspiration in the way the warlord does.

If you want to build Aragorn in 5e as a bard, go for it - though personally that's not where I would start.

 

[Maxperson]

Which other classes? I made a post about Aragorn in 4e. There are no other 4e classes that give inspiration in the way the warlord does.

If you want to build Aragorn in 5e as a bard, go for it - though personally that's not where I would start.

The 4e warlord fails miserably to approximate Aragorn. Aragorn could not heal with a word, make his comrades more resilient, nor did he micromanage his companions with directions allowing them to more movement or attacks. The Dunedain just had a supernaturally high charisma that "inspired". It wasn't anything like the 4e warlord, or a bard for that matter. D&D made a class specifically to imitate Aragorn, and that class was ranger. In all editions, if you want to approximate Aragorn, you are better off making him a ranger with a high charisma than you are giving him some other class

 

[pemerton]

D&D made a class specifically to imitate Aragorn, and that class was ranger. In all editions, if you want to approximate Aragorn, you are better off making him a ranger with a high charisma than you are giving him some other class

In AD&D there are aspects of Aragorn's capabilities - for instance, his ability to heal wounds and diseases - which a paladin does better than a ranger. (Not coincidentally, either - Aragorn's abilities reflect, in part, stories of holy kings, and so do a paladin's abilities.) In UA a paladin gains the ability to make his/her alliies resistant to fear, which is also an ability that Aragorn enjoys (eg otherwise Gimli probably could not have passed the Paths of the Dead).

In 4e a ranger is not a particularly good model for Aragorn at all - Aragorn is neither a particularly notable archer nor a two-weapon skirmisher, and he does not travel with an animal companion. For the same reasons I don't think 3.5, or really even 3E, rangers model Aragorn particularly well.

The 4e warlord fails miserably to approximate Aragorn. Aragorn could not heal with a word, make his comrades more resilient, nor did he micromanage his companions with directions allowing them to more movement or attacks. The Dunedain just had a supernaturally high charisma that "inspired". It wasn't anything like the 4e warlord, or a bard for that matter.

The only non-4e D&D edition I can think of where a high CHA supernaturally inspires one's allies is 5e (with a paladin's saving throw aura). In AD&D CHA only affects NPCs. In 3E there may be prestige classes or non-PHB classes I'm not familiar with where high CHA inspires allies, but I don't think there is such a thing for PHB classes.

In any event, the 4e warlord is a very good start for Aragorn. Aragorn can rouse his allies' spirits with a word (which is what a warlord's Inspiring Word does), and he can lead and inspire them in combat (which is what a warlord's "micromanagement" of movement and attacks does). A STR paladin is an alternative approach to Aragorn within that system, although outisde of heroic tier is going to be rather supernatural compared to Aragorn as written by JRRT.