D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Maxperson]

I have read it multiple times, as it happens to be a favorite of mine. But you need to understand something before you go about mansplaining: the content of the Silmarllion, in this case, is about as important to this overall discussion as the price of eggs in China to a Swedish dog walker. I repeat myself: all wizards that we see or know in Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are Istari. They are Maiar. Regardless of whether their Maiar natures are different from that, there is still clearly a link between the magic of Maiar and the magic of Wizards - blurring the lines between "class" and "race" - with Gandalf and Saruman being the two most prominent wizards of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (the most popularly read books of the mythos) having influenced the popular fantasy conceptions of "wizards."

All of the races used magic. Were they called wizards? Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe only maia magic users were called wizards. In any case, Gandalf learned magic from the other races as noted in this quote from Lord of the Rings, and his wizardly magic wasn't a part of being Maia. If it were a part of being Maia, they would all be wizards and there would be no Order of the Istari.

I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind. But only a few trials, I think, will be needed; and I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach to none. The opening words were Elvish, like the writing on the arch: that seems certain.

Even orcs had spellcasters!!!

 

[Hriston]

Their long lives come from their relation to Elros and the elven, human and maia blood inside of them, not because of being friends with elves. Given the amount of time spent in Numenor, nearly all of the numenoreans would have some royal blood flowing in their veins. The only thing they got from the elves was knowledge.

The long lives of the Numenoreans is not attributable to dissemination of the blood of Elros.

From the AKALLABÊTH:

To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eönwë came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.​

The mechanism presented here is that, in return for their service to the elves in the wars against Morgoth, the Edain were granted long life by the Valar through the tutelage of the Herald of Manwe. This population was contemporary with Elros and were not his descendants.

Elsewhere, Tolkien notes, "that the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar" (Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros”, footnote 1), showing that their longevity was owed to a difference in culture, rather than biology.

 

[Hriston]

So they'd be what? Half-elves? Asimar? ...
...the reason D&D has half-elves...?

No, the Dunedain were Men. Aragorn and certain of his ancestors were of divine and elven descent, but most of the Dunedain were not. Aragorn may have been the reason for the inclusion of the Half-Elf race in D&D, but I think Elrond and his sons are the more likely inspiration.

I'm sure his leadership abilities are bolstered by those things, but they're also perfectly natural abilities for a given human to have or develop, anyway.

Sure, it's just that when most humans declare themselves the rightful king, the ghostly image of a crown made of white flames doesn't appear to encircle their heads.

 

[Maxperson]

The long lives of the Numenoreans is not attributable to dissemination of the blood of Elros.

From the AKALLABÊTH:

To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eönwë came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.​

Gave them power, as in racial abilities

I also love how you post that quote, but failed to quote the following page where it says...

"Now Elros and Elrond his brother were descended from the Three Houses of the Edain, but in part also both from the Eldar and the Maiar; for Idril of Gondolin and Luthien daughter of Melian were their foremothers. The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgment; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given the choice of their own destiny. And Elrond chose to remain of the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was granted. But to Elros, who chose to be a king of Men, still a great span of years was allotted, many times that of the Men of Middle-earth; and all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house, had long life even according to the measure of the Numenoreans."

It's very clear that the blood is responsible for his lifespan and to that of his line, which includes the Dunedain. Eonwe give a small increase to the common(if any were common) Numenoreans, but the line of Elros had much more due to the special mix of blood.

From the Unfinished Tales it says...

"Nay, nay," said Meneldur, "You take your grace for granted: Erendis has shorter hope than you, and her years wane swifter. She is not of the line of Elros..."

More proof that the blood is what gives the Dunedain their long lives, being of the line of Elros.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, it's just that when most humans declare themselves the rightful king, the ghostly image of a crown made of white flames doesn't appear to encircle their heads.

And most men can't command undead, or curse them to being undead in the first place, or...

The Dunedain are descended from the families of Elendil and his sons, of the line of Elros. Most of them would have the long life and special abilities of the line of Elros.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

As much as I love a good Tolkien wank, even I cannot muster the energy to bang my head against this one.

Have fun ladies and gents.

 

[Maxperson]

/snip

As much as I love a good Tolkien wank, even I cannot muster the energy to bang my head against this one.

Have fun ladies and gents.

It's hard to argue against direct quotes.

 

[Hriston]

"Now Elros and Elrond his brother were descended from the Three Houses of the Edain, but in part also both from the Eldar and the Maiar; for Idril of Gondolin and Luthien daughter of Melian were their foremothers. The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgment; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given the choice of their own destiny. And Elrond chose to remain of the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was granted. But to Elros, who chose to be a king of Men, still a great span of years was allotted, many times that of the Men of Middle-earth; and all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house, had long life even according to the measure of the Numenoreans."

It's very clear that the blood is responsible for his lifespan and to that of his line, which includes the Dunedain. Eonwe give a small increase to the common(if any were common) Numenoreans, but the line of Elros had much more due to the special mix of blood.

No one is debating that the longevity of Elros is due to his half-elven parentage, or that his line, including Aragorn, inherited some of that longevity, but his line is not the whole of the Dunedain. His line is the royal family of the Dunedain. The Dunedain are the Numenoreans, and of course there were more of them than just the royal family!

From the Unfinished Tales it says...

"Nay, nay," said Meneldur, "You take your grace for granted: Erendis has shorter hope than you, and her years wane swifter. She is not of the line of Elros..."

More proof that the blood is what gives the Dunedain their long lives, being of the line of Elros.

Again, you're confusing the line of Elros with the general body of the Dunedain. This quote supports the idea that the line of Elros was distinct from the general population of Numenor. Erendis is not of the line of Elros, but she is one of the Dunedain and has a longer allotment of years than women of other races.

And most men can't command undead, or curse them to being undead in the first place, or...

The Dunedain are descended from the families of Elendil and his sons, of the line of Elros. Most of them would have the long life and special abilities of the line of Elros.

Those were just the royal families of Arnor and Gondor. The people that inhabited those countries were Dunedain as well. They were descended from Numenoreans that had colonized those lands long before the fall of Numenor. I would think a Dunedain race would represent the whole race and not just the royal house with its particular lineage. Like I said, something like that is better represented with a background.

 

[Shasarak]

All of the races used magic. Were they called wizards? Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe only maia magic users were called wizards. In any case, Gandalf learned magic from the other races as noted in this quote from Lord of the Rings, and his wizardly magic wasn't a part of being Maia. If it were a part of being Maia, they would all be wizards and there would be no Order of the Istari.

I would have imagined that it would be hard to make magical weapons like Sting if you had no one that could use magic of some sort.

 

[Maxperson]

No one is debating that the longevity of Elros is due to his half-elven parentage, or that his line, including Aragorn, inherited some of that longevity, but his line is not the whole of the Dunedain. His line is the royal family of the Dunedain. The Dunedain are the Numenoreans, and of course there were more of them than just the royal family!

Yes, and they sailed off to conquer Aman

The ones who were faithful were the families of Elendil and his sons. Those are the ones who left in the ships. There were probably some servants and such, but by the time of Lord of the Rings, intermarrying would have given most, if not all of the Dunedain the blood of Elros.

Again, you're confusing the line of Elros with the general body of the Dunedain. This quote supports the idea that the line of Elros was distinct from the general population of Numenor. Erendis is not of the line of Elros, but she is one of the Dunedain and has a longer allotment of years than women of other races.

I'm not confusing anything. The vast majority sailed off and died. The rest lived and bred with the line of Elros in Middle Earth when the faithful left.

Those were just the royal families of Arnor and Gondor. The people that inhabited those countries were Dunedain as well. They were descended from Numenoreans that had colonized those lands long before the fall of Numenor. I would think a Dunedain race would represent the whole race and not just the royal house with its particular lineage. Like I said, something like that is better represented with a background.

Those were the ones who left Numenor on the ships. The ones who settled the mainland were also Black Numenoreans, and not Dunedain. Only the faithful became Dunedain, and the faithful were the families of Elendil and his sons.