D&D 5E Sub-classes and World Building

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I'm having a difficult time reconciling my world with the new sub-classes presented in the XGTE.

In the PHB, I see two types of sub-classes, Natural Sub-classes - those that are a natural extension of the class, such as the barbarians's Path of the Berserker or the monk's Way of the Open Hand - and Tangential Sub-classes - those that take the class into a new direction, including the fighter's Eldritch Knight and the monk's Way of the Four Elements.

While it seem entirely possible that the abilities natural sub-classes could have arose a natural extension of the character's original training necessary to become a member of his or her class in the first place, tangential sub-classes would require more specialized instruction.

That instruction may come in the form of a divine or warlock patron or else a knowledgeable teacher. In some cases, such as the Eldritch Knight, that teacher need not be a member of the character's class; any wizard could instruct the fighter the ways of wizardry. At other times, as in the case of the Monk's Way of Shadow, a more specialized teacher (an adept in the ways of shadow magic, though not necessary a monk) may be necessary.

This, however, creates some difficulties with regards to world building and player agency. I want my players to have the widest variety of classes and archetypes to choose from, but I also want those choices to make sense within the context of the immediate setting and the world at large.

In some cases, such as the sorcerer, in which the character's sub-class is chosen at first level, there is no disconnect. The character has simple already received the training and knowledge of the principles necessary continue down and develop the entire list of abilities associated with the sub-class.

Classes that choose their sub-class after first level, such as fighter, monk, and paladin, are more problematic. While the player may want his or her character enter one sub-class, the arcane archer, for example, no instructor may be available. While the character could certainly search for a teacher, forcing character to choose their subclass at a specific level sets a time limit, by which time the character must locate such an individual. Alternatively, I could present a plethora of well known trainers easily accessible to the characters; unfortunately this places an uncomfortable amount of stress on the setting and raises the question of why the PCs' heroics are necessary in the first place with so many high-level characters nearby.

So. How to you solve this predicament in your campaigns? How does AL choose to handle it?

(FYI, "I don't care to think about these things and you shouldn't either" isn't the type of answer I'm looking for.)

 

[Voort]

Such instruction need not come from a person. Maybe the monk found a journal chronicling the way of a Kensei. Perhaps the paladin hears voices from a certain sword, calling them to the path of Conquest.

 

[Phion]

The short answer is when there is a will there is a way. Typically for classes that get their archetype later on I expect my players to be showing some potential of their development between level 1 and two i.e. a ranger identifying monsters and their weaknesses through actual knowledge before level 3. Typically I imagine a mentor has gave the character the knowledge beforehand but it is only later on the information/training clicks.

Now multiclassing is a different issue into a level 1 dip like sorcerer, typically I would prefer it if a player didn't at all or at least had a backstory that linked them to the class to begin with. Now if the story seemingly enables the connection then great. Just picking the class for optimization frustrates me but I am not going to stop a player from doing so, it is a game at the end of the day and as a DM it is important to make the experience as enjoyable as possible and some people have that fun through power builds.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Such instruction need not come from a person. Maybe the monk found a journal chronicling the way of a Kensei. Perhaps the paladin hears voices from a certain sword, calling them to the path of Conquest.

Not a bad idea. Some trainers, some books. Still requires the character to find the book/sword/whatever, though, but certainly lessens the number of trainers necessary.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

The short answer is when there is a will there is a way. Typically for classes that get their archetype later on I expect my players to be showing some potential of their development between level 1 and two i.e. a ranger identifying monsters and their weaknesses through actual knowledge before level 3. Typically I imagine a mentor has gave the character the knowledge beforehand but it is only later on the information/training clicks.

Now multiclassing is a different issue into a level 1 dip like sorcerer, typically I would prefer it if a player didn't at all or at least had a backstory that linked them to the class to begin with. Now if the story seemingly enables the connection then great. Just picking the class for optimization frustrates me but I am not going to stop a player from doing so, it is a game at the end of the day and as a DM it is important to make the experience as enjoyable as possible and some people have that fun through power builds.

My only trouble with that is that it forces the player to decide which sub-class he/she want to peruse from the start of the game and doesn't work well with regards to characters like the Eldritch Knight, which is such a stark turn from the original class.

 

[generic]

What you could do is alter the AL downtime system, in adventurer's league, you earn a resource known as downtime days. In your campaign you could award "training days" which you can spend to find a trainer who will help teach you each feature of your subclass.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think you are creating the problem yourself, when you decide to require explicit training at the level when the subclass is chosen. But you didn't require the same training at 1st level, did you? You probably just handwaved it or maybe asked the player to write down a short background. What is stopping you from doing the same at level 3, i.e. allow the player to describe how the PC managed to learn/acquire the new abilities.

Also, this problem may be caused by having a tight sequence of adventures without downtime. Wanting to play gapless adventuring campaigns and requiring training to level up are incompatible, so either separate the adventures with downtime or loosen the training requirements.

It also always helps to separate the narration of training from the acquired benefits. You don't strictly need to say that training and levelling up happen in immediate succession. You can let the players describe training when the PC just happens to have downtime, and then the benefits will manifest with the level up later on, or similarly you can allow the player a delayed description of past trainings.
[MENTION=6785649]Voort[/MENTION] gives a very good example how to generally replace personal training with something else. It is the DM's job to decide how things work in your world, you do not need to conform to someone else's expectations. In one fantasy world Wizards may strictly need a master to learn magic, in another fantasy world they could be simply self-taught. It's really up to you, so if you have troubles with some specific archetypes, you have all the rights to change how things work.

 

[GMMichael]

I want my players to have the widest variety of classes and archetypes to choose from, but I also want those choices to make sense within the context of the immediate setting and the world at large. . .

While the character could certainly search for a teacher, forcing character to choose their subclass at a specific level sets a time limit, by which time the character must locate such an individual.

The first part is what session zero is for: take the player ideas and reconcile them with the game world. Once that starts to take shape, weed out the remainder of the "widest variety," so your game world isn't full of weeds.

Not sure where you're getting a time limit from, though. There's no rate of time imposed on how often you give XP, and there are no time passing requirements in your story, either. If you can't resist the ticking of the clock, just let the character gain the sub-class level, and hold the irreconcilable bits back until the story lets them drop into place.

The short answer is when there is a will there is a way.

I have a shorter answer. "Because, Magic."

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I think you are creating the problem yourself, when you decide to require explicit training at the level when the subclass is chosen. But you didn't require the same training at 1st level, did you? You probably just handwaved it or maybe asked the player to write down a short background. What is stopping you from doing the same at level 3, i.e. allow the player to describe how the PC managed to learn/acquire the new abilities.

Also, this problem may be caused by having a tight sequence of adventures without downtime. Wanting to play gapless adventuring campaigns and requiring training to level up are incompatible, so either separate the adventures with downtime or loosen the training requirements.

It also always helps to separate the narration of training from the acquired benefits. You don't strictly need to say that training and levelling up happen in immediate succession. You can let the players describe training when the PC just happens to have downtime, and then the benefits will manifest with the level up later on, or similarly you can allow the player a delayed description of past trainings.

@Voort gives a very good example how to generally replace personal training with something else. It is the DM's job to decide how things work in your world, you do not need to conform to someone else's expectations. In one fantasy world Wizards may strictly need a master to learn magic, in another fantasy world they could be simply self-taught. It's really up to you, so if you have troubles with some specific archetypes, you have all the rights to change how things work.

But even in a campaign with significant downtime between adventures, some sort of instruction is necessary. I don't by the idea of self training. The probably of two self trained monks in either side of the world (two different campaigns set in the same work) picking up the exact same set of archetype abilities is infinitesimally small. Either I must limit some classes to a single unique character or I must provide some other explanation.

Personally, I like the idea of characters need to adventure in order to find mythic trainers, but it's quite difficult to distribute enough trainers in the campaign world to ensure that all characters find the correct trainer by 2nd or 3rd level and also provide enough adventure hooks to justify the presence of so many high level characters and ensure that they don't overshadow the PCs.

Items are certainly possible, but they also require an explanation. Either they must also be found, or (once again) the player must have already chosen a sub-class by the time his/her character begins active play.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I have a shorter answer. "Because, Magic."

But magic must also operate by certain rules, else it would be uncontrollable. Even the magic of a wild mage functions according a system of preexisting precepts. If magic were a mysterious, in-explainable force, able to be used as a universal justification, it lack the predictability presented in the PHB.