We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yes. George Lucas himself has said that it's basically a soap opera in space (hence the term "space opera").


While I agree that this goes against what Lucas has said in the past ("the dark side is a cancer" and "balance = no dark side"), it does fit better with the real-world philosophies on which the Force is based.

I get that, for sure. However, Lucas resisted the notion of Dark Side as a natural part of the force, and grey Jedi, etc, so strongly, and I also just feel that it sets Star Wars apart. I’m bloody tired of shades of grey everywhere. It doesn’t need to be part of every franchise.

Btw, I don’t think that the Unknwn Regions stuff is needed to understand the movies. It’s cool side info, but the movie tells us in the crawl that the First Order controls a large chunk of space in TFA, and that they’ve taken more systems in TLJ. I don’t want screen time dedicated to rehashing the crawl, personally.
 

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Aexalon

Explorer
Cf. the "why isn't ramming at lightspeed used more frequently in fleet engagements in SW?":

My hypothesis why it wasn't done immediately/repeatedly is because no-one expects it to work. In an (admittedly now Legends) comic from the early 1980s, the Executor gets hit by 3 Imperial-class star destroyers dropping out of hyperspace, and didn't suffer as much as a scratched paint job (its shields were heavily damaged, though):

GriffMeetsExecutor-CSW.png

Admiral Holdo might have only been trying to provide a bit of a distraction, not expecting the devastating effect the lightspeed ramming attempt actually had on the First Order fleet.

Personal headcanon starts here.

What actually happened was the result of the interaction between the Raddus trying to enter hyperspace on top of the Supremacy, and the Force-showdown between two of the most powerful (if perhaps inexperienced) Force users the galaxy had ever seen: Rey and Kylo Ren. The two actions coinciding in time and space resonated, and did not just snap Anakin/Luke's lightsaber in half, but shattered the Supremacy (and nearby Resurgent-class battle cruisers) as well.

Personal headcanon ends here.

But yes, that was the awesomest (inbetween a lot of other awesome) moments in the movie. Looking forward to seeing it again (for the 3rd time) tomorrow :cool:
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
No Spoilers...

My Review.

I FREAKIN' LOVED IT!!!!

It truly is the best Star Wars movie in 37 years.

The utter wonder for the universe is back, akin to the original trilogy--but more. The Flash Gordon influence is there. The WWII influence is there. Supreme Leader Snoke holds his own against Emperor Palpatine. I'd argue that Snoke may even out Emperor the Emperor.

The film is heroic. It's funny. It's got Jedi, with a BOOM!

It builds on the characters we were introduced to in The Force Awakens and makes them true Star Wars stars.

It's got heart felt moments.

In battle, those are real people out there dying...for a cause in which they believe with all their existence.

It's an incredible film with plot twists and turns you'll never see coming.

It's a GREAT Star Wars film.




Now...

Where would I put it in the line up?

Well, The Empire Strikes Back is just a perfect movie. It's hard to beat that.

And...A New Hope is the one with the magic that started it all. So, that's extremely hard to beat, too.

I place The Last Jedi third--a very close third.

In fact, I think these top three films--The Empire Strikes Back, A New Hope, and The Last Jedi are the cream of the crop. The Best of the Best. Better than the other films in the series.

The Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
The Last Jedi

The Force Awakens
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi

Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

I can see why Disney put Rian Johnson in creative control of the next trilogy.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Cf. the "why isn't ramming at lightspeed used more frequently in fleet engagements in SW?":

My hypothesis why it wasn't done immediately/repeatedly is because no-one expects it to work. In an (admittedly now Legends) comic from the early 1980s, the Executor gets hit by 3 Imperial-class star destroyers dropping out of hyperspace, and didn't suffer as much as a scratched paint job (its shields were heavily damaged, though):

View attachment 92045

Admiral Holdo might have only been trying to provide a bit of a distraction, not expecting the devastating effect the lightspeed ramming attempt actually had on the First Order fleet.

Personal headcanon starts here.

What actually happened was the result of the interaction between the Raddus trying to enter hyperspace on top of the Supremacy, and the Force-showdown between two of the most powerful (if perhaps inexperienced) Force users the galaxy had ever seen: Rey and Kylo Ren. The two actions coinciding in time and space resonated, and did not just snap Anakin/Luke's lightsaber in half, but shattered the Supremacy (and nearby Resurgent-class battle cruisers) as well.

Personal headcanon ends here.

But yes, that was the awesomest (inbetween a lot of other awesome) moments in the movie. Looking forward to seeing it again (for the 3rd time) tomorrow :cool:

Totally possible.

But also, shields seem to eat a decent amount of power in SW, so the dreadnaught may not have been running full shields. why would they? What possible offensive could they have used against it?

The point is, I think the scene is pretty strongly meant to show a surprise strike that was a gamble, took skill to pull off, and wouldn’t have worked if the imperials had seen it coming.

But lastly, it would almost never be worth it! There’s a reason that kamakazi tactics are extremely rare IRL. Many reasons, actually. It’s like suggesting that the US should have abandoned battleships with the engines at full to throw them at enemy ships in WWII. It would have been an incredibly stupid tactic in 99% of scenarios.
 

Argyle King

Legend
My thoughts:

I enjoyed it. It's not anywhere near as good as The Force Awakens, but it was far better than Rogue One*.

I liked the movie. There were a lot of good moments. Though, I do feel like it lacked some of the OT soul; it tapped into a spirit that felt a little more like the prequels. Whether that's good or bad is going to depend upon if you preferred to original trilogy or the prequel trilogy.

Personally, despite enjoying the movie, I came away from it less enthused about where SW is going in future movies. I feel okay about The Last Jedi, and I enjoyed seeing it in the theater, but I think it's a movie that I'm good with only seeing once. I have no doubt that the brand name will continue to sell and continue to make money, but I cannot say that I believe in the quality of the new direction for the franchise.


*I'm part of (what I think is) a minority who feels Rogue One was terrible. For me, a lot of individual parts of that movie were really cool and awesome when viewed in isolation, but somehow those parts made for a jumbled messed of a lackluster movie when put together. Visually, R1 looked awesome and (as said) I liked a lot of the individual scenes and characters when viewed in isolation, but I did not enjoy it.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Totally possible.

But also, shields seem to eat a decent amount of power in SW, so the dreadnaught may not have been running full shields. why would they? What possible offensive could they have used against it?

The point is, I think the scene is pretty strongly meant to show a surprise strike that was a gamble, took skill to pull off, and wouldn’t have worked if the imperials had seen it coming.

But lastly, it would almost never be worth it! There’s a reason that kamakazi tactics are extremely rare IRL. Many reasons, actually. It’s like suggesting that the US should have abandoned battleships with the engines at full to throw them at enemy ships in WWII. It would have been an incredibly stupid tactic in 99% of scenarios.

I dunno... I'd categorize suicide bomber tactics as being analogous to kamikaze attacks, and they tend to be effective enough that military tactics have been adjusted to account for them as a method used by the enemy. It's also interesting to note that Star Wars combat is heavily patterned after WWII combat and dogfights. As such, kamikaze tactics aren't exactly alien to the tactics being used. I'm also inclined to believe that such things would likely be attempted when faced with a no-win scenario, against a bigger and stronger ship. If my choices are to die a certain and horrible death or to die a certain and horrible death while also possibly inflicting heavy loses on the enemy, the latter seems the far better option.

I'd agree that it's a poor tactic in the majority of scenarios, but I feel as though the scenario shown in the movie would easily fall within the 1%, and it seems that The Resistance/Rebellion often seems to be in similar scenarios.
 

Joker

First Post
We can't really require common sense to be a feature of Star Wars, a fantasy series. If we demand consistency from the battles, then why not just have kinetic weapons going at light speed?
An X-Wing sized boulder going at several times the speed of light will likely do more damage than the "lasers" they use.
 

No doubt, I loved The Last Jedi, but I think it needed some editing. Kill your darlings, authors are told, and some of the scenes were unnecessary and made the story weaker overall.

I'm an egotist, so here's my 2000-word idea to tighten it up.

TL;DR - Phasma on Canto Bight, shuffle some scenes between the three threads, and cut out most of the action sequence on Crait so we can get from snuffing Snoke to Luke's showboating more quickly.


[sblock]The movie was fun and had a great core about the Force, but the surrounding narrative needed some work.

George Lucas’s original cut of Star Wars had numerous scenes that sapped the movie of momentum. I want to take a cue from Marcia Lucas, who reedited Star Wars into the theatrical version by tightening slack and using a few voiceovers to clarify plot points. She even added in the idea that the Death Star was approaching the rebel base on Yavin IV, which wasn’t in the original version George Lucas put together.

(Okay, I’d add some new scenes too, which Marcia Lucas didn’t have the luxury of.)

The core story of "Let the past die," and "Failure is a teacher" with Luke, Rey, and Kylo Ren was great. We keep that nearly unchanged.

I’d make three noteworthy narrative changes.

  • 1. Phasma pursues Finn and Rose to the casino Canto Bight, raising the tension of that mission.
  • 2. Shuffle the slow-speed chase scenes. Move the attack that nearly kills Leia to later in the ‘slow speed chase,’ and make it an act of rage by Kylo Ren after Rey tries to turn him through the psychic link.
  • 3. The death of Snoke leads immediately to an assault on the base on the salt planet Crait, so there is one climax, not two.

Slow Speed Chase, Pt. 1. First, just for my sci-fi nerd nitpicking’s sake, I’d surround Crait with an asteroid field, to explain why the good guys didn’t come out of hyperspace right by the planet, and why the First Order can’t simply do a hyperspace jump to get ahead of them. It’s not even safe for fighters, so Kylo Ren doesn’t initially go attack.

As in the original, Rose and Finn figure out they're being tracked, and go to find a slicer who can help. We actually have Finn and Rose’s mission be condoned by Leia.

Phasma’s Pursuit. Poe wants to go with Finn, but Leia refuses because he disobeyed her in the opening action sequence. This forces Finn to be the lead hero, where previously he’d had Poe or Han with him. I’d make Rose slightly reluctant to go out on a mission while she's still grieving her sister's death. Finn thus has a chance to inspire Rose (who will in turn inspire others to join the resistance.) This plot thread was lacking in character growth, so let’s work some in.

Their ship departs, and is tracked by the First Order. Hux tells Phasma to pursue them, and says they know the rebels might go to ground on some nearby world, so while she's on Canto Bight, there's something he needs her to pick up. Phasma gives us an actual antagonist in this thread, raises the stakes, and makes the fight between her and Finn on the star destroyer more affecting.

Finn and Rose still see all the casino stuff that expands the Star Wars setting in a cool way, and they get accosted by a few storm troopers. Finn and BB8 take them out, while Rose initially fails to be effective. Finn gives her a pep talk afterward about how in his first firefight, he never even shot his blaster because he didn’t know what he was fighting for.

We simplify how they meet their slicer DJ (Benicio del Toro). He's gambling and seems like he might be willing to help, but they’re spotted by Phasma and have to flee. During the chase they come across the kids in the stables, and seeing their suffering galvanizes Rose. She convinces the kids to help, which leads to a quick mounted chase sequence.

The pair link back up with Benicio and force themselves into his hotel suite to hide. DJ can do his ‘arms dealer’ speech in his hotel room instead of a ship. He agrees to help them, and says to follow them to his ship, but when the hangar opens, it reveals the <del style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; color: rgb(79, 79, 79);">laser battering ram</del> Doom Cannon, which the First Order needs to crack into the bunker on Crait. And Phasma is in the hangar too.

Benicio has betrayed them, and Phasma takes them prisoner to execute back with the First Order. BB8 stows away on Phasma’s ship.

Slow Speed Chase, Pt. 2. Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) gives a speech inspiring the forces to hold out hope, and then she dresses down Poe for caring more about his own glory than about the unity and morale of the movement. We don’t need Poe’s mutiny attempt, though, because we’ve shortened the casino plot, and thus don't need as many scenes for this plot.

We intercut as in the theatrical release with Rey on Ach-To. After Luke interrupts the hand-holding of Rey and Kylo, Kylo receives word that the resistance fleet is about to reach Crait. He's already angry, so he goes to board his fighter, disobeying Hux. Meanwhile Rey yells at Luke and decides to leave Ach-To.

Kylo flies through the asteroid field to try to kill Leia and free himself of his conflict. Leia orders fighters scrambled in defense, but to stay close to the ships where they have cover, but Poe still remembers being tortured by Kylo Ren, so he disobeys and gets reckless. His ship is clipped by an asteroid, and without BB8 to repair it, he can't stop Kylo.

Kylo still hesitates to kill his mother, but the TIEs attack and the lead ship’s bridge is destroyed. Leia still barely survives (but instead of flying through space, I’d have her stagger into the airlock right before the attack hits.)

Kylo withdraws, frustrated but unable to hold out any longer. Poe limps his X-Wing back onto the ship, horrified at his failure. And on Ach-To, Luke breaks down as he feels what he thinks is Leia dying. He destroys the temple and gets to see Yoda, which I thought was a great scene.

The Climax. A small beat I’d add early on is that when Snoke harasses Hux through his hologram, people on the bridge react to the power on their consoles flickering and the room darkening, as a sort of electronic interference due to the power of the Dark Side. Also, for narrative simplicity, I’d have Snoke on the same ship as Hux.

So, with Leia heavily injured, Rey shows up on the First Order capital ship, and Phasma brings in the Doom Cannon and her two prisoners. Hux smugly gathers his forces so they can witness the execution of the traitor FN-2187, and we have a scene on the resistance cruiser where they pick up communications chatter, of forces being ordered to attend the execution.

Laura Dern’s admiral tells Poe that Finn’s mission was a failure, but the First Order will be distracted. This will be their one chance. They’ll break out of the cover of the asteroid field and send shuttles to head for the planet’s surface. She and a skeleton crew on the cruiser will provide them cover.

Finn gives a short, defiant speech to the gathered storm troopers, with the theme that he’s been more in control of his life during his few days as a rebel than he ever was as a soldier. As they’re bringing out the axes for Finn & Rose, Phasma tells Hux that the resistance fleet is breaking from the asteroids. Hux sighs, laments he’ll miss the execution, and heads for the bridge, ordering the Doom Cannon to be readied in case any resistance ships get past them.

We play the two imminent executions in parallel - Rey in front of Snoke and Finn & Rose in front of the First Order, while the resistance shuttles are fired upon, and Poe is helpless, tending to a weak Leia. Then Kylo has his awesome execution of Snoke, except in our version he’s a sort of ‘load-bearing boss.’

His death releases a pulse of Dark Side energy that knocks out the shields to the First Order fleet. Admiral Laura Dern hears the shields are down and sees they have a momentary opening, so she sends the ship to light speed.

That shatters half the First Order fleet. We get to keep the coolest visual of the whole movie without raising the question why nobody else ever tried this in the other movies. And it creates chaos so Finn and Rose can make a break for it. Kylo Ren and Rey fight off the Praetorian Guard, and after Rey rejects Kylo and flees, she and Finn both get a signal from Chewie, who has flown in on the Falcon. She realizes where Finn is and reunites with him in the exploding hangar bay. Rose, who was excited to meet Finn, positively geeks out at meeting Rey, but only for a moment, and they escape in the knick of time as the shuttle bay explodes.

Unlike the theatrical version, we don’t slow down very long here. Hux rushes to the Supreme Leader’s chambers and gets put in his place by Kylo, who orders an immediate assault on Crait. Kylo leads the forces down, but Hux tells one of his subordinates to command the assault (mostly to trim the number of characters in our climax).

The Resistance ships skid their way into the hangar, and Poe notices the ‘snow’ is actually salt. They get a report that ships are incoming, and they start to close the door. It’s nearly shut when Leia senses Rey, and Poe recognizes the Falcon. The door shuts before they can get inside, but they call to Finn and Rey, who are pursued by TIEs.

Leia asks if Luke’s with them, but Rey says she failed. Finn says his mission was a bust too. Poe glances to Leia’s injuries and says something to the effect of yeah, this day isn’t making any of them look good.

Rose says that they’re seeing a huge First Order landing force, including the Doom Cannon, which will blast right through their door. They’ll circle and look for something that might possibly help. Leia tells them to just run, but everybody on the Falcon refuses, saying they need Leia to rally people against the First Order. Poe insists, and says that they need to follow orders before anyone else dies for no reason. Finn scoffs and says to wait a few more minutes before giving that order.

The First Order lands, has a defensive perimeter of walkers, and begins to charge their laser. The crew on the Falcon try to make an attack run (and kick up some salt revealing swaths of red crystal in the process), but they get driven off by TIEs that pursue them. The Doom Cannon fires, slags the door, and destroys a couple shuttles. Kylo orders the cannon readied for another shot.

Leia slumps, saying this must be where the light dies. And then Luke arrives.

From there, the climax plays out basically the same, which was excellent. During the distraction, Poe figures out the way out, Rey lifts rocks, and they fly off in the Falcon. Luke trolls Kylo and the First Order, apologizes for his failure, then passes on in serenity.

The Denouement. Our grace note is on the Falcon, safely in hyperspace. Rose tells Poe what Finn said just before his execution, and Finn is uncomfortable in the role of hero, brushing it off. He claims he was just stalling to stay alive. Rose says that still, it inspired her.

Then we cut to Maz Canata, recounting to a couple wannabe heroes in a bar the tale of a single pilot swooping over the ruins of her cantina, taking out fifty TIEs by himself; then a trio of First Order storm troopers warily loading weapons onto a transport, before taking off their helmets and hurling them off the ship in disdain before flying away to join the rebellion; and then finally the kids telling the story about Luke, ending in that shot of a kid looking to the stars.[/sblock]
 
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Water Bob

Adventurer
Here's another question...

Although strongly implied, are we completely sure of the reason Luke rebelled from the Jedi? Yes, it was the fiasco with Ben that effects him, but he seemed to set blame on the entire Jedi religion as well. What, exactly, turned Luke away from the Jedi?




An another question...

Who the HELL was Snoke? Where did come from? How did he get so strong in the Dark Side? What happened to him to screw him up so--the damage to his body?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Who the HELL was Snoke? Where did come from? How did he get so strong in the Dark Side? What happened to him to screw him up so--the damage to his body?

I hope we never find out. They ruined Boba Fett and Vader when they showed their origins. Han Solo, possibly, too next year. Some characters don't need an origin story - they work better when they're mysterious.
 

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