D&D 5E [+] Red Wizards of Thay

[Horwath]

Red wizards are a prestige class, you could only get into when you got certain level in wizard class(5th in this case).

Maybe the best way is to go with feats to implement some features of that 3E prestige class.

Feat;
Red Wizard initiate,
Prerequirement; wizard level 4+, int 15+, must be a wizard specialized in a school of magic(no bladesingers, warmages, etc...)
gain: +1 con or int,
gain one extra arcane recovery per long rest but spell slots gained from both now must be used on your specialized school of magic.
Pick 2 schools of magic, except your specialized school. Those are your minor schools. You cannot learn new spells for those schools by leveling a wizard class and writting them in spellbook from other sources cost double.
You use only half your proficiency modifier for those schools(DC, attack bonus, etc.)

Once per short rest you can use double your proficiency modifier for a spell from your favored school.
at lvl 11 you can use it twice.
at lvl 17, 3 times.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Add a couple of extra abilities to Thayan wizard NPCs:

Red Wizard Acolyte: Add the following Action option:
As an action expend a spell slot of any level. You count as a Contributor to your Red Wizard Master's Circle Master Ability until the end of your next turn.

Red Wizard Master:
You may add your Intelligence bonus to one damage roll of any spell from your chosen school.

Legendary action options:

Circle Master: You absorb the power of all Contributors within 20 feet of you. The next spell that you cast before the end of your next turn is cast as if from a spell slot of the level you expended, plus one for each Contributor within 20 feet of you, up to a level 9 spell slot.
Contributions in excess may be used to apply any metamagic (as the Sorceror ability) effects to the spell with each excess Contributor supplying one Sorcery Point.

Thayan teachings: You cast one of your spells, expending a spell slot as normal. This spell must be of your specialised school. You have advantage on any attack rolls or ability checks (such as checks to dispel) related to the spell, and the target(s) suffer disadvantage on any checks to save against or otherwise resist or dispel the spell.

Additional abilities:
Red Magic Ritual:
You may cast xxxxxxxx* as ritual spells whilst leading a group of your Acolytes. The level of spell that may be cast using Red Magic Ritual is equal to your highest level spell slot, plus one for every two acolytes in the group that you are leading.
You may write spells that may be cast as rituals into your spellbook even if they exceed the level of spell that you may normally cast.

*Include some spells from the wizard's chosen school that can't usually be cast as rituals.

 

[CapnZapp]

Red wizards are a prestige class, you could only get into when you got certain level in wizard class(5th in this case).

Maybe the best way is to go with feats to implement some features of that 3E prestige class.

That's probably a good solution.

Making Red Wizardry a subclass doesn't work, since the point is that you're supposed to be an Evoker or Transmuter from the start.

Making it a prestige class would of course solve that, but since we're not messing with minor bonuses that slowly increment there probably isn't enough to fill those levels. And prestige classes isn't the 5E way anyway.

A feat would solve those issues. Everybody (well, every spellcaster) can take it, and at any time (more or less). It instantly enables the signature traits of the concept, without the fiddliness of a gradual ability.

All we need to do is to specify the prerequisites. I would be inclined to keep this as simple as possible:
- has head tattoo
- can cast 3rd level spells
- proficient in Arcana

We don't bother differentiating between circle leader and circle participant - the above rule takes care of that (ie. the way the participant with the most levels in any single spellcasting class automatically becomes the leader/beneficiary of the spell energies sacrificed by the rest).

One big question remains: what about non-Wizards? Should they get any use out of Spell Power or Specialist Defense despite not having specialized in a school?

 

[CapnZapp]

Red Wizard Acolyte: Add the following Action option:
As an action expend a spell slot of any level. You count as a Contributor to your Red Wizard Master's Circle Master Ability until the end of your next turn.

Circle Master: You absorb the power of all Contributors within 20 feet of you. The next spell that you cast before the end of your next turn is cast as if from a spell slot of the level you expended, plus one for each
...

This is not the first proposal that makes circle magic something you do in the heat of battle.

So, in the interest of meaningful discussion, I must ask you (and others) why you suggest this?

As described in 3E, circle magic is something you do before breakfast, and then your students can go home while their energies are safely stored in your head.

Is there a particular reason why you come up with mechanisms that ignore this?

(I'm genuinely asking, since if I don't know what drives you, I can't appreciate your contributions. At the moment I only see how incredibly fragile circle magic becomes. A simple Fireball centered on the circle leader and his entire circle and source of energy is wiped out. What am I missing here?)

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I you want a ritual that happens in the background, and you dont want to just handwave it and say this spellcaster has more spellslots than his monster card allows because he did a ritual that morning, I think your best bet is something like the Hag Coven template from the monster guide, changing the number of member allowed/needed, the maximum distance between member, the extra spells list acquired by the leader (I'd go with 8 different templates, 1 for each school) and the new level of the leading spellcaster.

This would allow for a more ''story telling'' power while still allowing the players to 1) distrupt the ritual before it happens 2) find the apprentices and disable them before facing the leader to break the circle.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is not the first proposal that makes circle magic something you do in the heat of battle.

So, in the interest of meaningful discussion, I must ask you (and others) why you suggest this?

Because you asked for help, and while myself (and maybe others) do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the setting, the basics of what you asked for was within our capability to try to help you out: A simple, modular mechanic to distinguish an NPC as a distinctive faction that are very effective spellcasters within a school specialisation, and are capable of boosting their magic by drawing upon the power of their subordinates.

Is it not something that they do in the heat of battle, when the PCs are approaching? As was pointed out before, if you just wanted something that they did immediately after preparing spells and retained that capability all day, then a flat boost in spell slots or similar will do. If the mechanics of having to actually draw power from their acolytes is irrelevant because they'll never need to do so around the PCs, why to they need that ability?

As described in 3E, circle magic is something you do before breakfast, and then your students can go home while their energies are safely stored in your head.

Is there a particular reason why you come up with mechanisms that ignore this?

Because I don't know the 3e mechanisms, but you seemed to asking for an alternative to the way that they worked that fitted in with the precepts of 5e. You had mentioned one potential mechanic that you had come up with, but seemed to still be after different suggestions from other people.

So I thought about alternative methods for the very thematic image of a circle of mages all working together to cast a spell of more power than they would otherwise be capable of, in a form that would allow you to demonstrate and describe to your players, in a set of fairly simple additions that could easily be applied to an NPC template.

(I'm genuinely asking, since if I don't know what drives you, I can't appreciate your contributions. At the moment I only see how incredibly fragile circle magic becomes. A simple Fireball centered on the circle leader and his entire circle and source of energy is wiped out. What am I missing here?)

Circle magic isn't the kind of thing that would be used in the midst of melee: that is what Thayan teachings is for. Its pretty bad at action economy.
Its the kind of thing that forms a tactical objective: can they disrupt the circle? They would have to be seriously lucky to punch a fireball through that many casters. It also allows the DM the option of sacrificing action economy to throw a seriously threatening spell at a party that might have good saves or other defences against conventional spells.
Alongside the ritual ability it also serves the purpose of plot-relevant explanation as to how a wizard of a low enough power level that the party can beat is able to do whatever the party are trying to prevent/undo, whether that was dropping a permanent curse on someone or raising a very powerful undead.

As to what drove me: someone asked for help: I tried to provide some.

 

[Satyrn]

Ah.

But "needing to convert slots" is the entirety of circle magic - and the need/benefit of having underlings. Are you suggesting the Red Wizard should simply gain that power for free, and if so, why?

I am suggesting you give them the power for free. For simplicity, as you were asking for NPC features, and my inclination for that sort of thing is to go as simple as possible. Converting NPC's slots into points just feels like an unecessary step to me. Even more so since the ceremony happens "offstage" hours before the spellcasters enter the scene with the players..

As an alternative, to reinforce the minions helping bit in a way the players can actually see, I'd be inclined to give Red Wizard Minion NPCs a feature that let them use an action (or bonus action, or reaction, whatever works for you) to bestow points on the wizard to be used within one round. The more minions surrounding him, the more points he has for each round.

 

[Stalker0]

I like the idea of an wizard subclass that gave you some sorc points and a metamagic. Not a lot but some.

Then a fest to handle the circle magic, which is just the sharing of sorc points.

Not as all powerful as the 3e one, but it covers the important points.

 

[CapnZapp]

Because you asked for help

Thanks.

By the way, if you want to read up on what the Red Wizards used to get, and what mechanics I was trying to emulate, I provided links in my OP.


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[CapnZapp]

I like the idea of an wizard subclass that gave you some sorc points and a metamagic. Not a lot but some.

Then a fest to handle the circle magic, which is just the sharing of sorc points.

Not as all powerful as the 3e one, but it covers the important points.

Sure.

Just to head off one possible complaint.

This is not about stealing the Sorcerer's stuff and giving everything to Wizards ☺

This is just me realizing that the Red Wizard / Circle Magic abilities are perfectly expressed as Sorcery Points. They do the exact same two things as d20 circle magic did (except maybe in a more low-key fashion): allow meta-magic w/o the 3e cost of increased spell level, and more spell slots!

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