Fourward Path

[Garthanos]

Especially with the advent of Fixed Enhancement Bonuses essentially obviating the need for wealth --> magic item progression

Frees the DM and Players to have PCs who do not care about wealth or want to hoard it or want to use it for ultimate world domination(until a monster shows and drives off all your synchopants)

 

[darkbard]

Frees the DM and Players to have PCs who do not care about wealth or want to hoard it or want to use it for ultimate world domination(until a monster shows and drives off all your synchopants)

Right. I would have liked to see this systemetized in some way.

 

[MoutonRustique]

Rob Donoghue wrote a very interesting series of articles developing a Skill Challenge system that is clever and contains these kind of elements...
[sblock="URLs"]
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/situation-problem.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/fighting-situation.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/this-is-not-science.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/challenge-strikes-back.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/how-challenges-hurt.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/mapping-challenge.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/what-doesnt-work.html
http://rdonoghue.blogspot.ca/2011/01/building-challenge.html[/sblock]

Wow! ... I mean... wow! That is some awesome work. I've recently been starting a "top-down" review of what I want from my "4ward" heartbreaker, and this is definitely going in!

Every time I see one of these things and see the date, I laugh and then cry a little (or a lot...). Where was I during those years? Wasn't I on the boards, and hunting for blogs, and all that stuff?

Also, yeah... it just re-affirms : Too soon!(tm)

 

[Garthanos]

Wow! ... I mean... wow! That is some awesome work. I've recently been starting a "top-down" review of what I want from my "4ward" heartbreaker, and this is definitely going in!

Every time I see one of these things and see the date, I laugh and then cry a little (or a lot...). Where was I during those years? Wasn't I on the boards, and hunting for blogs, and all that stuff?

Also, yeah... it just re-affirms : Too soon!(tm)

Perhaps we could formalize it and call it

Revised Skill Challenges
Fourward towards an integrated conflict system

 

[pemerton]

one thing that I really wish further development of 4E would have tackled at some point is a subsystem of PC wealth and/or status.

<snip>

The PC's gps buy her that magic sword, but that sword has no mechanic in the gameworld beyond its combat utility, and if the PC used that gold to instead buy an estate or a ruby tiara, there is no mechanic for this at all.

There are hints of this in M's Magnificent Emporium - I think that has the Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty, which gives some sort of advantage in some social interactions (I haven't pulled it off the shelf to check the details); and it has rules for hirelings like valets and the like.

In my main 4e game the PC fighter/cleric was effectively the party leader during paragon tier - not among the PCs, but in relating the PCs to the noble barons and priests who are the staples of the paragon setting. And at that time he paid money to retain and outfit Gutboy Barrelhouse, his dwarven herald, who at various points gave him a modest (+2 or so? - it's a while ago now!) bonus to some Diplomacy checks in those social contexts.

Without dramatically changing the whole social resolution mechanic, allowing wealth and status items to contribute to bonuses and fictional framing in skill challenges is how I would look at handling this aspect of game play. Of course, it does require making social status and social outcomes matter in play, but that's a separate thing in itself. I've never found it too hard to run games where that counts.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wealth being handled well is not something D&D has ever done elegantly - Wealth actually is power is not exactly the driving subject of D&D genre and this creates issues. You might not even want a realistic wealth system.

Funny you should say that. I simplified it to a single chart in HoML

Wealth
As discussed above, money is generally a minor boon and GMs can dispense it as they see fit, but extremes of either wealth or poverty can have some effect on character's ability to muster resources that may help them accomplish their goals. Consequently the following assumptions are made throughout these rules in terms of the likely sums of money, goods, and services available to PCs.
Tier Treasure Size Insignificant Significant Major
Heroic 100sp 10cp 50sp 20gp
Legendary 100gp 10sp 50gp 200gp
Mythic 1000gp 100gp 500gp 5000gp
Tier indicates one of the three tiers of play, as discussed in Legendary Heroes. Treasure size indicates the general scale of a monetary reward acquired as a minor boon at that tier. The last three columns indicate the general scale of outlays which a character might make in terms of whether or not they are insignificant (basically pocket change), significant (something worth consideration but not large enough to drastically effect the character's finances), or major (an amount the character will need to account for in her plans).
Generally these amounts can be extrapolated between tiers, so a level 7 PC might find insignificant expenses as much as several sp, while a 200sp expense might now be significant but not major.
In general heroic tier characters may be concerned about meeting everyday living expenses. Legendary characters may be concerned with significant fortunes and remarkable wealth. Epic characters are generally beyond normal monetary considerations, but may sometimes become involved in adventures revolving around truly fantastic fortunes, sources of vast wealth, etc.
Note that this general scaling is also carried into the equipment tables, ritual costs, item fabrication costs, and NPC wages as well.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are hints of this in M's Magnificent Emporium - I think that has the Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty, which gives some sort of advantage in some social interactions (I haven't pulled it off the shelf to check the details); and it has rules for hirelings like valets and the like.

In my main 4e game the PC fighter/cleric was effectively the party leader during paragon tier - not among the PCs, but in relating the PCs to the noble barons and priests who are the staples of the paragon setting. And at that time he paid money to retain and outfit Gutboy Barrelhouse, his dwarven herald, who at various points gave him a modest (+2 or so? - it's a while ago now!) bonus to some Diplomacy checks in those social contexts.

Without dramatically changing the whole social resolution mechanic, allowing wealth and status items to contribute to bonuses and fictional framing in skill challenges is how I would look at handling this aspect of game play. Of course, it does require making social status and social outcomes matter in play, but that's a separate thing in itself. I've never found it too hard to run games where that counts.

I like how this naturally falls out in HoML, 'Gutboy Barrelhouse' basically IS a boon. He's just identical mechanically to a magic item or some sort of training or magical charisma or whatever. The PCs 'earned' him through adventuring and outlay of expenses and he provides a bonus in the proscribed situation. Heck, he can quite legitimately have a power or two as well, just like any item might. Gaining his service raises the patron character a level, moving him up in the fortunes of the world (assuming Gutboy is a reasonably level-appropriate thing, if he's trivial then he's a minor boon).

 

[pemerton]

assuming Gutboy is a reasonably level-appropriate thing, if he's trivial then he's a minor boon

I think Gutboy would be a minor boon, then.

When he got hit once, I did allow the player to roll a saving throw to avoid Gutboy being killed minion-style. As best I recall the save was successful, and Gutboy lived to serve for another day.

 

[Garthanos]

Especially with the advent of Fixed Enhancement Bonuses essentially obviating the need for wealth --> magic item progression

Frees the DM and Players to have PCs who do not care about wealth or want to hoard it or want to use it for ultimate world domination(until a monster shows and drives off all your sycophants)

One repercussion of this is that rituals also become more potentially significant

 

[darkbard]

One repercussion of this is that rituals also become more potentially significant

And a most welcome outcome at that for yet another thing that I wish further development of 4E would have addressed: revamping the Ritual subsystem. Admittedly, my gameplay has been exclusively in Heroic tier, but aside from Comrades' Succor, rituals never saw much action at all.