Fighter Subclass: The Bravura! (INT-based, tactical, non-magical)

[mellored]

Oh...interesting making the number of contingencies being based on your Int. Clever way to make INT desirable. Trade them in/out at each level? Do you still get more at higher levels?

Dunno.

It depends on how narrow/borad the contingencies are. Though I see no issue trading them, as you might change your plan if you find a magic bow vs a magic great sword.


Also, yea. 5' default for contingencies.
Shooting an arrow out of the air with another arrow would be cool.

Conceptually I like that they get more powerful with free hands, but maybe it's enough to make some of them require one or two free hands.

I imagine most will have 3 levels.

i.e.
When you ally hits with an attack, you can add 1d8+Int their damage.
If you have 1 free hand, add 1d10 damage.
If you have 2 free hands, add 1d12 damage.

That said, i havn't looked up the item interaction rule. So it might need a little finagling.

Except that without it it means they can't really move around the battlefield, unless they just stay out of combat completely.

Right. Avoid OA's should be a thing.
Though I also agree that running around completly free might be a bit OP.

So... you can avoid OA's, but at a cost...

You can avoid Int OA's per turn?
Give up some movement?
Give up a reaction?


I think I like avoiding Int OAs's best.

How about: "When faced with a challenge, whether physical, social, or intellectual, your ability to formulate a plan based on teamwork can help the group succeed. If you use an action to study a problem and communicate a plan, you may designate as many allies as your Int modifier, each of whom gets Advantage on one ability check used in the next minute toward overcoming that challenge. After you use this ability you may not use it again until you have finished a short rest."

Wording is still awkward, but that's the idea.

I like that. Works for both for "Let's all charm the king" to ""Everyone push them the oger off a cliff", and "Everyone get ready to land after jumping off the air ship".

Though, how about +Int bonus?

All Together!
When faced with a challenge, whether physical, social, or intellectual, your ability to formulate a plan based on teamwork can help the group succeed. As an action, choose a skill and a course of action. For instance, you might say "Let's climb the wall" and choose Althetics. Each creature (including you) who can hear and understand you gains a bonus equal to your Intelligence modifier to their next attempt at performing that action within the next 1 minute. Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you take a short rest.

(By the way, if I were to put a healing ability in it would be in this slot, but I think making a plan is much more appropriate for the concept.)

I agree. Leave healing as an optional contingency.

I mean, if your playing an evil blood thirsty goliath with polearm master + sentinel (One of my favorite 4e characters), it would be pretty odd that you would suddenly learn to bind a wound.

Oh, that's really interesting. The Action Surge thing is starting to drift into that zone of "magic but not magic" that makes me leery, but given that Action Surges are a precious and limited resource, I think I'm ok with it. At my table, I can always say, "Yeah but Action Surges are actually supernatural, sooo....."

I agree, but it's better than extra reactions.
Got another ideas?


One more thought. The default rules already have -10 speed for low Str people wearing heavy armor. So I wouldn't worry about the medium armor speed thing.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

For a in-or out-of-combat ability, themed around the Bravura directing teamwork, how about something like:
Cooperation: The Bravura may select a number of allies equal to their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). The next time within an hour that these allies take the help or aid action, they not only grant advantage, but also a bonus equal to their relevant ability modifier to the roll that the person that they are aiding makes.
The Bravura may not use this ability again until after a short or long rest.

A basic ability similar to the Mastermind Rogue that allows the Bravura to take the help action at a distance would fit. Allowing the Bravura to take the help action in place of an attack might be good as well. So at higher levels they could help multiple times by sacrificing their own attacks rather than requiring an entire action to help once.

Would you be opposed to giving the Bravura an ability that granted an ally the ability to spend one of their own HD to heal in combat?

I'd probably be less opposed to the Bravura being able to exhort their comrade and gift them their Second Wind ability.

 

[Guest 6801328]

A basic ability similar to the Mastermind Rogue that allows the Bravura to take the help action at a distance would fit. Allowing the Bravura to take the help action in place of an attack might be good as well. So at higher levels they could help multiple times by sacrificing their own attacks rather than requiring an entire action to help once.

It's got that. As a reaction you can take the Help action, granting Advantage to an ally's attack. Since you get multiple reactions you could do this multiple times: 1 + once for each of your attacks (+ 1 more at 15th level, in the revised version...that I haven't actually posted yet.)

I'd probably be less opposed to the Bravura being able to exhort their comrade and gift them their Second Wind ability.

In this version I'm specifically trying to avoid any hint of exhorting/inspiring/ordering/leading/etc.

By the way, I think the various reactions ("Moves" or "Contingencies") need names.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

In this version I'm specifically trying to avoid any hint of exhorting/inspiring/ordering/leading/etc.

Fair enough. Just stick to a Bravura being able to pick up the Healer Feat if they want to do that sort of thing then.

 

[Hussar]

To be honest, since we're building this on a fighter chassis, I'm not really opposed to the idea that the character doesn't get healing. Then again, to me, healing wasn't a major part of Warlords anyway. They got healing because they were leaders, but, it wasn't the interesting part of the character. Again, for me, it was always about action granting and buffing. Healing was just a nice extra perk.

And, frankly, since healing is so common in 5e (how many classes can cast healing of some sort?), I'm not sure there is a need for a another class that heals.

If this was meant to be a full class with subclasses, then healing would probably be more of an issue. But, since fighters aren't really expected to heal, having a fighter based warlord not heal wouldn't break any deals for me.

About the only issue I have with this class is that it is fiddly. Very fiddly. Having to track how much movement you used this round to subtract it from next round, how many attacks you gave up, did you give up an attack or a bonus action, whatever, means that this is going to be a very complex character to run at the table.

I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but, I can see it being a PITA if someone isn't really on the ball tracking things round to round.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what the justification is for losing later actions. If I move further this round, why am I eating up movement next round? Just grant bonus movement and be done with it. Keep the resource expenditures self contained within a given turn might be a lot simpler.

 

[Guest 6801328]

About the only issue I have with this class is that it is fiddly. Very fiddly. Having to track how much movement you used this round to subtract it from next round, how many attacks you gave up, did you give up an attack or a bonus action, whatever, means that this is going to be a very complex character to run at the table.

Yeah, I really agree. I've been pondering how to abstract some of it away so that it's less fiddly while retaining it's essence.

One thing I'm looking at is whether or not it's really necessary to restrict each reaction to once per round. The worst cases aren't really that terrible, as long as "1 reaction per turn" remains, and the bonus action option doesn't kick in until 15.

If I can get it down to just counting up your reactions and then deducting the total (-1) from weapon attacks on your turn, I think I'll be happy.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what the justification is for losing later actions. If I move further this round, why am I eating up movement next round? Just grant bonus movement and be done with it. Keep the resource expenditures self contained within a given turn might be a lot simpler.

Well, if you think of a "round" as being from any initiative count to any initiative count, then all reactions plus your next turn are still within one round. (In other words, April 1st to March 31st is a year just as much as January 1st to December 31st is.)

But, yeah, having to keep track of all that movement is getting unwieldy.

Maybe the simplest version is just to allow just the 5'/10'/15'/20' from levels 7+ to be used during reactions. So at level 10 you could move 10' on each reaction you take, plus your normal movement on your next turn.

By "losing later actions" were you referring to more than the movement? Trading weapon attacks for reactions is kinda the foundational mechanic here, so I'm not sure how I would get rid of that. Certainly allowing extra reactions every round AND getting all your attacks is too much.

 

[Guest 6801328]

All Together!
When faced with a challenge, whether physical, social, or intellectual, your ability to formulate a plan based on teamwork can help the group succeed. As an action, choose a skill and a course of action. For instance, you might say "Let's climb the wall" and choose Althetics. Each creature (including you) who can hear and understand you gains a bonus equal to your Intelligence modifier to their next attempt at performing that action within the next 1 minute. Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you take a short rest.

I liked the idea that it could be any skill: "You distract the guard while Bob climbs the wall and I try to calm the guard dogs..."

Also, I think it has to last longer than a minute, for situations like going into an audience with the king. The wording I'm looking for is that the Bravura has to state what the goal is, and for each participant any action that is made in support of that goal is fair game, but each player gets to pick what it is.

I thought about +INT as the modifier, but then how to limit the number of "allies"? Can he make a plan before a battle and give the entire army a bonus? "In your party" isn't really a technical term. I thought about it only working for Player Characters, but I can imagine circumstances where you might want NPCs to have it. And +INT to INT allies makes the value of ability the square of your Int mod, which is too steep a curve. That's how I ended up with Advantage to INT allies.

 

[mellored]

About the only issue I have with this class is that it is fiddly

IMO: It's not that fiddly. You only have 2 numbers to track. Reactions used, and movement used.

I mean, sure, that's more than battlemaster's 1 resource. But 2 numbers isn't exactly a high bar.
Easier than tracking 9 different levels of spell slots, time left and effect of your concentration spell, and whatever other feature you got (wild shape, sorcery points, channel divinity).

And much less fiddly than replacing attack ahead of time and trying to remember all the effects you lined up. Since each reaction is still resolved when you use them, you don't need to remember that you gave the paladin advantage 3 turns from now.

The only tricky part is that your "actions" reset at the "end" of your turn. But that's not difficult, just different.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what the justification is for losing later actions.
...
If I move further this round, why am I eating up movement next round?

You get 2 attacks and 30' of movement every 6 seconds. Same as any other fighter.
You just do it a little sooner, and in a different order, allowing you to respond better to the situation.

Also balance. You can't add full warlord abilities and still have full fighter abilities without being too powerful. So you need to trade the attacks. One way or another.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

An alternative would be to make the reaction abilities a little more powerful, but require that the Bravura hold back actions or attacks from the previous round rather than being able to spend them in advance from the next round.

This makes the class much more tactical, since the bravura needs to consider contingencies and possibilities. But also less powerful, since they may end up wasting held back actions rather than just having less the next round.

 

[FrogReaver]

An alternative would be to make the reaction abilities a little more powerful, but require that the Bravura hold back actions or attacks from the previous round rather than being able to spend them in advance from the next round.

This makes the class much more tactical, since the bravura needs to consider contingencies and possibilities. But also less powerful, since they may end up wasting held back actions rather than just having less the next round.

Doesn't feel as good to me