D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
All that being said...

I've been gaming since about 1990, and I've *never* played a paladin. Rangers, fighters, wizards, rogues, clerics, barbarians, warlocks, (alchemist and magus if you count pathfinder classes), druid and I've considered playing a monk and sorcerer (in both cases, character made but campaign that aborted very quickly) but I have *never* played a Paladin. Or a bard for that matter...
 

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Uchawi

First Post
I believe the one thing that brings a paladin to the forefront is efficiency. There is little waste when it comes to healing, damage or even utility. On top of that they not only fill gaps for certain roles, but enhance the party at the same time. I agree that auras are probably the biggest offender in a game with bounded accuracy, but the smites being allowed after a hit is also a stretch from a realism perspective, even in a fantasy world.
 

TiwazTyrsfist

Adventurer
So, any analysis of why People Think Paladin is Overpowered really has to look at the history of the class in previous editions. Cause, a lot of things "About the Paladin" are really legacy BS from older editions. Like, I keep forgetting that in 5E Paladin doesn't have an alignment restriction.

Mostly, also, I think it's because Paladin is really almost always better than Fighter, which is seen as a baseline character. A Paladin can really always do everything a Fighter can, while there is almost NO way to build a fighter to do what a Paladin does.

I don't know much about 1st ed, so I'll start with 2nd Ed.

AD&D 2E - The Paladin vs the Fighter.
At 9th level, the Fighter attracts followers. This is the ONLY thing Fighters get that Paladin's Don't.
Ability Score Requirements. Fighter, Str 9. Paladin Str 12 Con 9 Wis 13 Cha 17.
This of coarse back in the day when everyone always rolled stats.
So, if you got a really bad set of rolls, you could still almost always be a fighter, but in order to be a Paladin you HAD to have a really strong set of stat rolls to start out. A Paladin was almost always a better base character than anything else just because you HAD to have higher rolls to play it, Paladins ALWAYS had higher stats.
Then, on top of that, Paladins get a slew of other bonuses.
Detect Evil, Bonus to all Saves, Immune to Disease, Lay of Hands, Cure Disease 1/week, Aura of Protection, Turn Undead, Summon Warhorse, and lastly CAST PRIEST SPELLS.
All while still in Full Armor, using any weapon, and getting multiple attacks per round at higher level just like a fighter.
Drawbacks? Must be LG, Limited to 10 (permanent) magic items, can't keep money BEYOND WHAT IS NEEDED FOR A MODEST LIFESTYLE, PAYING HIS HIRELINGS, AND UPKEEP ON A 'MODEST' KEEP OR CASTLE... All the excess must be given to the church...
And a 10% tithe off the top of all treasure he gets to the church.

So, a massive upgrade over the Fighter for what are, frankly, not that big of a deal drawbacks. The access to the class by stat requirement is the real gate here.

D&D 3.X Fighter v Paladin
Same BAB, same Saves, same Skill ranks per level, same HP, same weapon and armor proficiency EXCEPT, Fighter gets Tower Shields Paladin does not.
The rest of the class. Fighter gets 11 bonus feats. That it.
Paladin gets Detect Evil, Smite Evil, +cha to all saves, Lay Hands, Party Morale Buff, Immune to Disease, Turn Undead, Summon Mount, Remove Disease 1/week, and Half Cleric Spell Progression.
Paladin Drawbacks: Must be LG, cannot associate with Evil Characters...
So, again, Paladin is a Fighter with BETTER STUFF. I'm sorry, you can't equal the benefits of Paladin spell casting with 11 combat feats. Let alone the other benefits the Paladin gets.

Pathfinder (D&D 3.75)
Built on the base of 3.5, Pathfinder made greater changes to some classes, but to fighter and paladin they kept the core from 3.5 and added on.
Fighter gets Armor Training, Weapon Training, and Bravery. Bravery is a save bonus against Fear, Armor training lowers armor penalties and increases Dex Bonus (raising AC), and Weapon Training (core) increases Damage and Attack bonus with groups of weapons. These are all decent bonuses, and we don't lose any feats. PF Fighter is just better than 3.X Fighter.
PF Pally gains Mercies which add condition removal to lay of hands, like you LoH to heal and ALSO remove Dazed or something. Also they now have a good Will save. They get a number of Auras at later levels that grant nice bonuses. The biggest thing however is the Divine Bond that replaces Summon Horse. Divine Bond CAN be used to get a special mount using the animal companion rules, BUT it can instead be used to have a Weapon Bond, that lets you enhance your weapon with magic power. So you don't need a magic sword, because you can cause your sword to be +1 for 50 rounds a day starting at level 5, and the bonus grows as you level.
Fighter does better here, but, again, SPELL CASTING, and the only drawback to paladin is having to be LG. The gap is narrowed, but Paladin comes out ahead. Now when you start adding in all the supplemental books, things get crazy (Fighter can spend weapon training to get a magic weapon power similar to Divine Bond, all kinds of other stuff).
But starting out from Core, Paladin was still slightly in the lead.

4e I've blocked from my mind and can't find the book, so I guess I'll skip that as well.


5E, Fighters get MANY lovely options, more extra attacks (3 & 4 per round at higher levels), and in general can easily match or exceed Paladins in really any field except healing. Also fighters get a built in self heal with second wind. Action Surge is incredible.
Fighter and Paladin both get extra Attacks, but Fighter gets more
Fighter and Paladin both get Fighting Styles, but Fighter gets MORE
Paladin gets spell casting, but a Fighter can go Eldritch Knight and ALSO get spell casting.

I could go on but I'm starting to lose interest in my own damn post...

To Summarize (TLDR): In Older editions the Paladin was Fighter++ with better stuff and super powers. In 5E they're Equal but everyone still remembers when Paladin was massively OP and it colors their opinions.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
5E, Fighters get MANY lovely options, more extra attacks (3 & 4 per round at higher levels), and in general can easily match or exceed Paladins in really any field except healing. Also fighters get a built in self heal with second wind. Action Surge is incredible.
Fighter and Paladin both get extra Attacks, but Fighter gets more
Fighter and Paladin both get Fighting Styles, but Fighter gets MORE
Paladin gets spell casting, but a Fighter can go Eldritch Knight and ALSO get spell casting.

I could go on but I'm starting to lose interest in my own damn post...

To Summarize (TLDR): In Older editions the Paladin was Fighter++ with better stuff and super powers. In 5E they're Equal but everyone still remembers when Paladin was massively OP and it colors their opinions.

Your analysis is good, but I don't fully agree. I think we've gone from fighter++ to "merely" fighter+

The spell-casting of a paladin is better than an Eldritch Knight, full stop. They have their full spell list, not restricted to 2 schools and they are half casters, not 1/3. The *only* thing the EK has better is the cantrips.

The healing of a paladin far surpasses the healing of a fighter. It can be applied to others and it cures conditions (poisoned etc).

The paladin, because of higher charisma (and sometimes because of status as "champion of good goddess Y") is normally superior in social conditions.

The action surge of the fighter is as good, but no better, than smiting, so that's a draw

The extra attacks of the fighter is partially balanced by the extra divine damage paladins get at level 11 (that extra 1d8 damage) *and* it only comes online at level 11. I think we can agree that the levels that see most play are 5-10?

So my conclusion remains - the paladin is better than the fighter. Now is it so good as to be OP - well that's not so clear. But it's clearly a "top tier" class in 5e.
 

AD&D 2E - The Paladin vs the Fighter.
At 9th level, the Fighter attracts followers. This is the ONLY thing Fighters get that Paladin's Don't.
2e Fighters got Weapon Specialization and Paladins didn't. And unlike the 3e feat, 2e WS was a big deal, giving you extra attacks. And when Paladins got something similar to WS in a rules expansion (the extra attacks but no damage/hit bonuses), that same rules expansion gave Fighters Grand Mastery, which was again a really big deal.

Honestly, the 2e Paladin, while capable unlike 3e and 4e, was still pretty underwhelming unless they got a Holy Avenger.

As for 3.x/Pathfinder, spells were not that great of an advantage for the Paladin because of the way spellcasting worked in those editions, being based on caster level and DCs based on spell level. Paladin spellcasting, with caster level at half Paladin level, and caster level determining so many things like ease to dispel, duration, etc., was pretty gimpy as a result. The 3.x Paladin was commonly called "half Fighter/half Cleric/all gimp" for that reason. 3.x Smiting was also situationally useful, at best (though PF did improve that substantially at least).
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
2e Fighters got Weapon Specialization and Paladins didn't. And unlike the 3e feat, 2e WS was a big deal, giving you extra attacks. And when Paladins got something similar to WS in a rules expansion (the extra attacks but no damage/hit bonuses), that same rules expansion gave Fighters Grand Mastery, which was again a really big deal.

Honestly, the 2e Paladin, while capable unlike 3e and 4e, was still pretty underwhelming unless they got a Holy Avenger.

As for 3.x/Pathfinder, spells were not that great of an advantage for the Paladin because of the way spellcasting worked in those editions, being based on caster level and DCs based on spell level. Paladin spellcasting, with caster level at half Paladin level, and caster level determining so many things like ease to dispel, duration, etc., was pretty gimpy as a result. The 3.x Paladin was commonly called "half Fighter/half Cleric/all gimp" for that reason. 3.x Smiting was also situationally useful, at best (though PF did improve that substantially at least).

Heh heh this.

I suspect most games of D&D do not go over level 10 and 3-6 encounters/day is more common than 6-8 which the designers assumed (which was silly IMHO).

At levels 1-10 the fighters do not have any big advantages over the other warrior types, they get action surge but most of the warriors also get a weapon style (Paladin archers maybe not) and they get an ASI. A single ASI doesn't stack up that good vs the holy aura which is generally +3 (+2 minimum with default stats).

Throw in all the other goodies Paladins get and it is hard to argue the fighter is better and a Paladin using a handful of spells (shield of faith for +2 AC and perhaps bless) has way better saves and a higher AC when it matters (cast SoF going into the dungeon, lasts 10 mins).
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
I think you are correct about the 3-6 encounters per day being standard. I don’t, I generally push players through 3-5 encounters before a rest. If they try to rest to much while adventuring I just attack them, especially if the opposition is organized and knows they are around.

In addition, if players are trying hit and run raids then the opposition will prepare traps, strongpoints with a retreat option etc.

Far too many DMs allow players to rest too much and start every encounter with too many resources. This prejudices some classes against others.


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Ratskinner

Adventurer
IME the 5e Paladin is significantly overpowered for a traditional adventure style that allows the PCs to rest as they wish. Its all about the refresh AFAICT. If the GM keeps pounding, the pally runs out of juice fast. The only fights in my game that are tough are the ones with a tired (or absent) paladin, and that's with a Fighter and Bear Barbarian around too. Otherwise, the pally just stomps all over everything.

Even out of juice, the Paladin is an only slightly sub-par fighter.

Personally, it seems clumsily-designed. Having one in the party is a trap for the DM and limits the kind of adventuring you can design. The default spectrum of rest-recovery abilities between the classes is one of the weakest areas of 5e design.

IME, IMO.

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CTurbo

Explorer
IME the 5e Paladin is significantly overpowered for a traditional adventure style that allows the PCs to rest as they wish. Its all about the refresh AFAICT. If the GM keeps pounding, the pally runs out of juice fast. The only fights in my game that are tough are the ones with a tired (or absent) paladin, and that's with a Fighter and Bear Barbarian around too. Otherwise, the pally just stomps all over everything.

Even out of juice, the Paladin is an only slightly sub-par fighter.

Personally, it seems clumsily-designed. Having one in the party is a trap for the DM and limits the kind of adventuring you can design. The default spectrum of rest-recovery abilities between the classes is one of the weakest areas of 5e design.

IME, IMO.

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I agree with most of that, but no matter how hard the DM pounds, the Paladins' auras are always on all the time no matter how tired they get. So even at their worst, they're still really strong and are a real PITA for DMs.
 

BigBadDM

Explorer
I gave my portent roll of 20 to the Paladin and he smited Death
Then he rolled his own 20 with the 2nd attack and smited Death's son.

We fought a dragon and no one was scared.
We never failed a save.
We stayed in the flying V formation.

Do disease and poison conditions exist?
 
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