D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?

[werecorpse]

Don't forget Sacred Oath, it's the "feature" that, from the very beginning of D&D and all its new versions (called different things), defined what it means to be a Paladin and not just a Fighter. Read PHB pg 85-86... from 3rd level, you are expected to be living and breathing your vows. It's the reason you're given extra powers, over and above a Fighter. If you don't bother using it at your table, that's up to you, but much like the Cleric, you're missing the point if you just play them as just another a regular-Joe with some spells and stuff.

Sure but the fact that you should roleplay your character is something common to all characters. Fighters should be roleplayed as well, with personal goals, secrets, codes of conduct or whatever. To the extent the oaths and additional role play obligation is seen as a justification for more mechanical power I don't buy it. Plus in 5e if you break your oath it's an "off screen" event to say whoops and you are golden. So my attitude to this is sure they have an expectation they will be roleplayed in a particular way, same with monks, barbarians, bards, etc that can't possibly still be being used as a justification for their power. In 1e the code existed and was required but the balancing thing was the fact it cost more XP to level up. A mechanical difference

 

[Invisible Stalker]

Sure but the fact that you should roleplay your character is something common to all characters. Fighters should be roleplayed as well, with personal goals, secrets, codes of conduct or whatever. To the extent the oaths and additional role play obligation is seen as a justification for more mechanical power I don't buy it. Plus in 5e if you break your oath it's an "off screen" event to say whoops and you are golden. So my attitude to this is sure they have an expectation they will be roleplayed in a particular way, same with monks, barbarians, bards, etc that can't possibly still be being used as a justification for their power. In 1e the code existed and was required but the balancing thing was the fact it cost more XP to level up. A mechanical difference

And it was rare to roll up a paladin in the first place

STR 12
INT 9 (yes Paladin had a minimum INT score)
WIS 12
DEX no minimum
CON 9
CHA 17 (!)

Maybe they could bring that back, say...

STR 12/ INT/ 10/ WIS 12/ DEX -/ CON 12/ CHA 16 (I don't think human only will fly in this age)


Paladins had to tithe 10% right off the top and couldn't keep excess treasure.

They were limited in magic item numbers as well, the 5E equivalent could even be 1 attuned magic item.

And yes, DMs need to be strong in enforcing those oaths. If you lose paladin status, none of this oathbreaker business, the character MUST suffer a fate worse than death itself... it has to become a fighter.

 

[Oofta]

[MENTION=55491]werecorpse[/MENTION], in my experience paladins have not felt overpowered, and while the aura is awesome it's as much of a buff for allies that do melee as the paladin themselves if they allies are close (which does cause other issues).

Of course that's just one person's perspective and it may not apply to your game, but my rogue/fighter never felt "jealous" of the paladin. Yes, every once in a while they went nova but we never knew how many fights we were going to have so they ended up being fairly conservative. In addition, don't underestimate the ability of feats to balance things out. At different levels different PCs will feel more powerful but in my experience it balanced out over time.

I'd recommend chatting with your players and see what they think before you start making changes. The thing is that there's never going to be perfect balance in D&D. At some levels, certain PCs are going to be more powerful.

If you verify that it is an issue, try throwing more encounters per day and limit short and long rests. Or simply give some goodies to the non-Paladin players. Beyond that, limiting the number of smites would work even if it does feel a little heavy-handed to me. You can always try it and see if it works.

 

[mrpopstar]

And yes, DMs need to be strong in enforcing those oaths. If you lose paladin status, none of this oathbreaker business, the character MUST suffer a fate worse than death itself... it has to become a fighter.

Nooooooooooooooo!!!!

 

[psychophipps]

The main difference I see that boosts Palladin in 5th vs. earlier editions is that they can declare smite *after* they confirm a successful to-hit roll. Every earlier edition had to declare smite before the to-hit roll and I had *never* landed a successful smite until 5th edition. I started in 1984.

 

[hastur_nz]

Agree, Divine Smite as written in PHB is the only real problem, it easily leads to what I've heard called the "Crit Fisher" or similar, i.e. you try and maximise your ability to land critical hits, then use Divine Smite on your crit so you get double a large pool of dice. I'd much rather it worked like most other spells and abilities - you declare you're using Divine Smite (e.g. as a Bonus Action), then it applies to your next hit (within a 1 round limit).

 

[werecorpse]

[MENTION=55491]werecorpse[/MENTION], in my experience paladins have not felt overpowered, and while the aura is awesome it's as much of a buff for allies that do melee as the paladin themselves if they allies are close (which does cause other issues).

Of course that's just one person's perspective and it may not apply to your game, but my rogue/fighter never felt "jealous" of the paladin. Yes, every once in a while they went nova but we never knew how many fights we were going to have so they ended up being fairly conservative. In addition, don't underestimate the ability of feats to balance things out. At different levels different PCs will feel more powerful but in my experience it balanced out over time.

I'd recommend chatting with your players and see what they think before you start making changes. The thing is that there's never going to be perfect balance in D&D. At some levels, certain PCs are going to be more powerful.

If you verify that it is an issue, try throwing more encounters per day and limit short and long rests. Or simply give some goodies to the non-Paladin players. Beyond that, limiting the number of smites would work even if it does feel a little heavy-handed to me. You can always try it and see if it works.

Oofta, Always interested in hearing what works for other groups - fine if what works is RAW. If you don't mind, what level is your group and how many characters in the party ?

I always talk to my players about this stuff, possibly too much as they usually have the attitude "you just work out what's reasonable and we'll play that."

In my very slow advance group (so expected to be a long campaign) at 5th the player of the eldritch knight character has dumped him and replaced it with a paladin of the ancients and the barbarian player is the only other player contemplating changing characters.

I also am running a normal advance XP group which is at 4th ATM and just had a tpk so all new characters. One of the players is going to try playing a heavily nerfed paladin to see how it goes. I have removed everything gained from the oath replaced it with giving a channel divinity at 3rd which is identical to the cleric one based on their religion, reduced smite to useable only 1/short rest and changed the 6th level power to just effecting one save as chosen by the player at the end of a long rest. He was going to play a battlemaster and says that getting 20 points lay on hands a channel divinity and a few paladin spells seems like a decent exchange for what he has given up. It's an experiment so we will see.

 

[CTurbo]

All this talk about jealousy from other players, in my experiences, I've seen more players get jealous of my three different Tempest Clerics than any Paladin. Even my melee optimized Tempest ended up stealing the show more times than not.

I do think that the 5e Paladin is the overall strongest class from top to bottom though.

 

[werecorpse]

Agree, Divine Smite as written in PHB is the only real problem, it easily leads to what I've heard called the "Crit Fisher" or similar, i.e. you try and maximise your ability to land critical hits, then use Divine Smite on your crit so you get double a large pool of dice. I'd much rather it worked like most other spells and abilities - you declare you're using Divine Smite (e.g. as a Bonus Action), then it applies to your next hit (within a 1 round limit).

I wish smite was the only issue, then I'd just change that but in a game so tightly tied to bounded accuracy getting +3 or +4 to all saves is a huge deal. One of my players has suggested that Paladins of 6th level or higher are "the best magic item in the book".

How's this for a demented high level adventure. The party is sent to rescue a holy warrior of (nature deity) who also happens to be an elven prince(ss) from a dragon. Then the horror starts. When they encounter the massive beast it has the elven prince(ss) strapped to its chest gagged with its arms and legs cut off. It treats its prisoner not as a creature but as it would an amulet so it gets +5 to saves and takes half damage from all spells. It offers to give him(her) back in exchange for sufficient items to replace the benefits it gets....

 

[Oofta]

Oofta, Always interested in hearing what works for other groups - fine if what works is RAW. If you don't mind, what level is your group and how many characters in the party ?

I always talk to my players about this stuff, possibly too much as they usually have the attitude "you just work out what's reasonable and we'll play that."

In my very slow advance group (so expected to be a long campaign) at 5th the player of the eldritch knight character has dumped him and replaced it with a paladin of the ancients and the barbarian player is the only other player contemplating changing characters.

I also am running a normal advance XP group which is at 4th ATM and just had a tpk so all new characters. One of the players is going to try playing a heavily nerfed paladin to see how it goes. I have removed everything gained from the oath replaced it with giving a channel divinity at 3rd which is identical to the cleric one based on their religion, reduced smite to useable only 1/short rest and changed the 6th level power to just effecting one save as chosen by the player at the end of a long rest. He was going to play a battlemaster and says that getting 20 points lay on hands a channel divinity and a few paladin spells seems like a decent exchange for what he has given up. It's an experiment so we will see.

We got to 20. At various points, paladin felt more powerful, at other points it was mine, there were times when the fighter kicked ###. When the aura went to 30 it was an awesome party buff.